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Thread: Timing Tables LNF

  1. #1
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    Timing Tables LNF

    I don't usually give out bad advice but I feel this post wasn't up to my usual spec so I deleted it. Sorry guys.
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    Last edited by MikeM173; 05-26-2015 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Misinformation

  2. #2
    It's totally correct. Incorrect timing balanced with the OS is the reason you see part throttle dips with a steady pedal but varying rpm/load. I tried to explain that (poorly) before and gave up. Hopefully people will listen closely to what you are saying.

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    Bill,
    I don't think most of what I have said is anything new. Mostly what I wanted people to see is the other factor tables that affect timing and cause these issues that I don't ever see changed in any tune I see. Minus a very small few.

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    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    nice informative post to bring attention back to basic tables that are getting missed.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

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    I can see. LOL Mike you just took the blind fold off. I hadn't thought much about the coolant and IAT temp tables. Its been a while since I worked on them. I don't know if I was right or wrong,? but I actually set them to 0s while I have been tuning. I didn't want them messing with me. I thought after I pretty much had it where I wanted my tune I would just go back and work on those tables. I honestly didn't know that these tables would override others. Thanks for the info

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    Powermizer,
    It doesn't overwrite anything. You can see they are negative numbers. This is saying hey at this temp we'll start having real knock so take away this amount of degrees etc. They are very good tables to have access to for safety. I use them a lot along with the lambda vs rpm one. I forget the exact name of that one.

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    Thanks Mike. As usual good info.

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    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    Powermizer, yes you are correctly tuning your multiplier tables. These tables should all be disabled, set to zero then after the base has been confirmed you come back and activate the modifiers as needed. As mike said, these should be used for safety.
    iirc these tables have a base to them like IAT Spark then they have their own modifier IAT Multiplier. if you set the base to 2 and the multiplier is still zero, you will see no change. if the base is 2 and the multiplier is 1 then it adds 100% of the value entered in the base (which is 2). You can get creative on these tables and apply different multiplier values to change the effectiveness of the BASE per the axis requirements on the multiplier table. Hopefully that made sense.
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 05-21-2015 at 02:42 PM.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post

    If you just do simple math and actually pay attention to what the tune is saying to do in the spots it is saying to do it in, you'll be able to figure out how you go from commanding 6deg down to .5deg.
    Not sure what the optimum spark table is used for but my calculator says i should be seeing 7 degrees of timing at 2833rpm.

  10. #10
    Then you really need to read the optimum spark thread. It can have a huge effect on the timing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    Powermizer, yes you are correctly tuning your multiplier tables. These tables should all be disabled, set to zero then after the base has been confirmed you come back and activate the modifiers as needed. As mike said, these should be used for safety.
    iirc these tables have a base to them like IAT Spark then they have their own modifier IAT Multiplier. if you set the base to 2 and the multiplier is still zero, you will see no change. if the base is 2 and the multiplier is 1 then it adds 100% of the value entered in the base (which is 2). You can get creative on these tables and apply different multiplier values to change the effectiveness of the BASE per the axis requirements on the multiplier table. Hopefully that made sense.
    Thanks it does make sense. Now I just need to figure out how to use this info for maximum benefit. lol I have so much to learn.

  12. #12
    If your urgency is low it will directly affect timing. ECU references that and will pull timing if what it perceives as low urgency relative to the MS table. If you have a negative value for OS but high MS value the ecu will pull timing not add.

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    Okay, one issue I see with the pictures you posted Mike, is that the IAT table is set to degrees centigrade and the datalog is looking at degrees farenheit. If we were to assume the table was legitimately in centigrade, we would rarely be seeing 60 degree centigrade IAT's (140 degrees F). 62*F is 16.67*C, so it would actually be right around adding 0.5 to 1 degree of timing, if I am looking at the table correctly. I don't see Engine Coolant Temp, so I have to discount that modifier. So, from here I would presume that it should be commanding 6.5, adding 0.5 or 1 degree from the IAT modifier (assuming I can take the datalog being in *F and the table being in *C at face value). As you said the optimum spark does not enter the actual calculation, so I can't put a numeric value to the effect on that table.

    This is why I said I didn't see anything in the original tune, and I still don't know if I see what you are speaking of, which worries me because I am having a similar issue on my car (commanding 27 getting 18), despite looking at all of these (I had not made them all zero yet, but will do so).

    As for the optimum spark tables, I feel like I get the concept but I don't know exactly how it would apply to this situation exactly. I have read the threads, and correct me if I am wrong, but the higher the difference the more "urgency" so the actual would be closer to the commanded value. Am I right? I am on the work computer right now, so I can't compare and dig like I would like to, but I feel like the difference of 17 is not that much... (right?).

    This is very interesting and I hope this helps me solve my issue. Thanks for sharing!
    Matt K

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    after mike brought this this particular screen shot up to my attention, i noticed that this specific example explained by mike is not affected by ms to os offset as far as ignition goes. this example as described by mike to me, was specifically selected to provide a chance to shed light back onto the basics of ignition control to help people who may have forgotten about this sections function. its all for the basics of base and multiplier effect.
    the ms to os offset error can still be seen though, notice how all the actual values dont track with the commanded values, thats normally a good indication the ms to os offset needs to be adjusted along with a few other tables. the cams are not tracking properly, the fuel pressure is off track, and i would bet if the tps data was all viewed together it also wouldn't be tracking to commanded.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    I would bet money that those tables are not in celcius. I could be wrong but from what I can remember testing them they were not. By all means please check it and if I am wrong I will gladly delete this post.
    I agree with you, it would make no sense that every table in the ECU is in F... just something I noticed. If that is the case, then absolutely I do see what the issue is. This may very well be the issue with my car, since I have been interpreting it as C rather than F...

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    In the VCM Editor- "Tools"- "Options"- "Default Units"- select "Metric or Imperial".

    Geeez! The teacher leaves the room for 10 minutes and all hell breaks loose! ALL of you get back in your chairs and pay attention to the blackboard dammit!

    Jk, you guys are doing an amazing job of keeping this learning train going. Keep it up! Sorry to neglect you guys in here, the only online forum time I've had lately has been devoted to other sections on here. (If you look for my other posts there are some with good info in them about general HPTuners scanner use and tuning stuff.) At least it's still HPTuners stuff and not Skytard or Soltard forums! I still look on those once in awhile just for the lol's though. Plenty of eye opening humor on those forums as you guys know. Have you seen the "200mph" thread lately? Hahahahahahahaha. Guess what happens when you turn a blower into a hair dryer? It welds itself together! And what do you do when your supercharger seizes, makes horrible sounds, smells like burning rubber and smoke comes out the back of your car? YOU KEEP DRIVING TO WORK OF COURSE!!!!! Sure, this is a guy that would be TOTALLY safe going 200mph in a car meant to do 100mph. I'd bet the pink slip to my Sky that the car in that thread will NEVER hit 200mph. It would be pointless though because unfortunately I think that poor guy is gonna kill himself or others attempting his retarded goal. It will forever amaze me that such a cool car would have such whacked demographics. Why are "Kappa" people SO freakin' weird????? (Except for you guys of course!)
    Last edited by gmtech16450yz; 05-25-2015 at 11:46 AM.

  17. #17
    Go to Solsticeforum where they name their cars creeper names and put every ghetto option possible on starting with lambo doors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by codename Bil Doe View Post
    Go to Solsticeforum where they name their cars creeper names and put every ghetto option possible on starting with lambo doors.
    Here's some good google searches when you guys need a good laugh... Try "Saturn Sky hood murals" or "Chrome Sky" or "Punisher Solstice" or "Lambo doors on Solstice". My son has found some good stuff searching Solstice and Saturn Sky on cardomain too. Literally had us peeing our pants late one night just searching retarded things people do to those two cars alone.

    These are a couple of my favorites...
























    OMG help me I can't stop! There's SOOOO many!

  19. #19
    YEP! Those are the weirdos. Or the guy "opelizing" his Kappa. Other than buying a coupe and parts, there is a reason I never go on there.

  20. #20
    I will admit, of all the dumb body kits I've seen in my life (which is all of them), the cobra front looks pretty decent.

    http://www.solsticeforum.com/photopo...3/Solbra_6.JPG