What in the World could be causing this Idle / Timing Issue???

[GHuggins]

Once you apply the OS sd patch it will have these 3 tables in the pic below. These 3 tables are the one's that you need to populate in order to get it to crank and run.

If you have GM Ve in your scanner. Build a histogram that looks identical to these tables via rpm and map and log gm ve. AS LONG as your maf is close this will allow you to get closer and closer to what your ve table needs to be. I use this to populate my sd tables the first couple of times to "rough" them in as quickly as possible. Keep in mind that the "gm ve" is based off of the ve table and maf table in the tune, so if one of these isn't right, then what it tells you it should be won't be either - thus why you may have to do a few times... This is why you can't just use gm ve to get your ve table in one pass like some think you can in other words...

You can use the ls3 table I posted or this ZL1 table that might be closer for your build? Just start the engine and see how far off your initial a/f is while still in open loop and multiply the whole tune by this percent to get it rough to start datalogging.

[schpenxel]

Once you apply the OS sd patch it will have these 3 tables in the pic below. These 3 tables are the one's that you need to populate in order to get it to crank and run.

If you have GM Ve in your scanner. Build a histogram that looks identical to these tables via rpm and map and log gm ve. AS LONG as your maf is close this will allow you to get closer and closer to what your ve table needs to be. I use this to populate my sd tables the first couple of times to "rough" them in as quickly as possible. Keep in mind that the "gm ve" is based off of the ve table and maf table in the tune, so if one of these isn't right, then what it tells you it should be won't be either...

I made a PID the other day that takes "GMVE" x wideband(lambda)/commended lambda to come up with a "corrected" GMVE. Built a histogram out of it and there you go, new VE table. Worked pretty well in open loop. Tried adding in fuel trims to the formula and running closed loop but it didn't seem to work as well for whatever reason.

[GHuggins]

I made a PID the other day that takes "GMVE" x wideband(lambda)/commended lambda to come up with a "corrected" GMVE. Built a histogram out of it and there you go, new VE table. Worked pretty well in open loop. Tried adding in fuel trims to the formula and running closed loop but it didn't seem to work as well for whatever reason.

Never thought about. Glad to know...

[pganci]

Once you apply the OS sd patch it will have these 3 tables in the pic below. These 3 tables are the one's that you need to populate in order to get it to crank and run.

If you have GM Ve in your scanner. Build a histogram that looks identical to these tables via rpm and map and log gm ve. AS LONG as your maf is close this will allow you to get closer and closer to what your ve table needs to be. I use this to populate my sd tables the first couple of times to "rough" them in as quickly as possible. Keep in mind that the "gm ve" is based off of the ve table and maf table in the tune, so if one of these isn't right, then what it tells you it should be won't be either - thus why you may have to do a few times... This is why you can't just use gm ve to get your ve table in one pass like some think you can in other words...

You can use the ls3 table I posted or this ZL1 table that might be closer for your build? Just start the engine and see how far off your initial a/f is while still in open loop and multiply the whole tune by this percent to get it rough to start datalogging.

Thanks, I will try to flash it tomorrow if work permits. Your spreadsheet's columns and rows are opposite of mine, is there a way to change them in my tune or will I have to manipulate the data?

[GHuggins]

Thanks, I will try to flash it tomorrow if work permits. Your spreadsheet's columns and rows are opposite of mine, is there a way to change them in my tune or will I have to manipulate the data?

That table is for the OS Patch... Causes them to switch like that. Have you applied the 2bar os and tcs patches yet? The new tables should look just like the one I posted. This is also why I believe you can't just copy the table from 2.25 because it has them backwards. Haven't tried so not sure on that remark?

Just copy your tune in 2.24 and apply the patches. You can do this without actually writing to the vehicle yet. It's going to make you save the new tune file seperately anyway. You can then open the new tune file with new operating system and plug the data in the spreadsheet straight into your "3" valve open, closed and normal tables under the airflow section of the tune. I would then compare your new tune to your old tune so you can "familiarize" yourself with what the new OS gives you...

Very important-Like stated above, make sure your map sensor settings stay the same. You'll probably have to change these back to what "your" settings were for this....

[pganci]

That table is for the OS Patch... Causes them to switch like that. Have you applied the 2bar os and tcs patches yet? The new tables should look just like the one I posted. This is also why I believe you can't just copy the table from 2.25 because it has them backwards. Haven't tried so not sure on that remark?

Just copy your tune in 2.24 and apply the patches. You can do this without actually writing to the vehicle yet. It's going to make you save the new tune file seperately anyway. You can then open the new tune file with new operating system and plug the data in the spreadsheet straight into your "3" valve open, closed and normal tables under the airflow section of the tune. I would then compare your new tune to your old tune so you can "familiarize" yourself with what the new OS gives you...

Very important-Like stated above, make sure your map sensor settings stay the same. You'll probably have to change these back to what "your" settings were for this....

I don't believe my OS has the option to for 2 bar. Under OS general I was able to apply the SD Patch, Manifold Vacuum Patch and TCS patch but under VCM Enhancements it says not available for 1, 2 and 3 bar speed density.

I went back to my old P59 Gen3 PCM and it shows the ability to apply the 2 bar speed density.

Am I screwed?

[GHuggins]

No, but you are kinda stuck with using 2.25's vve table unless you use bluecat. No biggy, just fail the maf, create a histogram identical to what it looks like in 2.25 and start logging and making corrections... If I remember right yours is already converted to a 2.5bar system in your vve table even though it wasn't tuned. Where your VE drops off after 100kpa I would copy the last known good line "100 kpa" and paste it into your highest map setting, multiply that line by 1.15, then interpolate between the two, create equations then finally reflash with that before beginning the datalogging... This way you atleast have somewhat of safe fueling in the boosted areas. Then as previously stated with your mods I would do a start and see how far off your air fuel vs commanded is and make whole table percentage changes first with that. You'll probably find that you have to add 15 to 20 percent of fuel right off of the bat if the sd hasn't been touched yet.

There are others ways to do this, but they're rather involved and I really think that this will be your best and easiest way to do it if you don't have the 2bar os patch.

[pganci]

No, but you are kinda stuck with using 2.25's vve table unless you use bluecat. No biggy, just fail the maf, create a histogram identical to what it looks like in 2.25 and start logging and making corrections... If I remember right yours is already converted to a 2.5bar system in your vve table even though it wasn't tuned. Where your VE drops off after 100kpa I would copy the last known good line "100 kpa" and paste it into your highest map setting, multiply that line by 1.15, then interpolate between the two, create equations then finally reflash with that before beginning the datalogging... This way you atleast have somewhat of safe fueling in the boosted areas. Then as previously stated with your mods I would do a start and see how far off your air fuel vs commanded is and make whole table percentage changes first with that. You'll probably find that you have to add 15 to 20 percent of fuel right off of the bat if the sd hasn't been touched yet.

There are others ways to do this, but they're rather involved and I really think that this will be your best and easiest way to do it if you don't have the 2bar os patch.

I didn't get a change to play with it yesterday but I modified the table like you said above and used the blue cat tool then applied the results back to HPTuners. I am only able to save it to the Manifold Switched Closed VE table. the others revert back when it calculate the coefficients. Is that all that is needed?

[GHuggins]

NO, bluecat only seems to work with 2.24... You should be able to use 2.25's vve table. It will create all coeficients when dirrected unless something has happened to it since the last time I used it...

You can save the tune to 2.24, but it takes practice to use bluecat correctly. I would just use 2.25's vve if at all possible. You may have to copy individual lines back into the tune from the datalogger, but that's still the route I would take

[pganci]

Like I said, a little bit of knowledge is dangerous and that's what I am.

I just copied it back.

[GHuggins]

It's not hard to do, just spooky that first time I think as long as you set your datalog up correctly to correspond with the vve table in 2.25 and fail the maf as described, you'll be just fine. Then after you make changes a couple of times, you'll get more and more comfortable with it I know with your build and what I saw in your tune, your system will greatly benefit from this...

[pganci]

I started doing some VE Tuning today.

I modified my VVE as GHuggins suggested to start.

Doing normal driving I was seeing AFR #'s +/- 8% which seemed normal for VVE never being touched. When I start going into boost and hitting PE it goes completely lean and it says +60% which again seems normal for the first time.

I have done a few logs and pasted the results using Multiply by %. After doing it 3 or 4 times my VVE table seems to be going awfully high when I compared to the sample ZL1 VVE table that GHuggins sent me. His table didn't go past 3500, after the 3 or 4 pastes I've done i'm in the 10,000's and climbing with each scan and paste.

A few times after doing the paste and it calculates the coefficients it would skew a couple of zones by a lot so I would interpolate it to clean it up. When I do a compare to the previous file I see that the Speed density VE tables are changing by huge numbers. Attached is a screen shot, the lower table is the original table and upper is what it changed to, big changes.

Does this sound right am I moving in the right direction? It just looks strange after looking at other VVE tables.

VE coefficients.JPG

[GHuggins]

You mind posting a pic of your main ve table? The 3d picture... Bill Elliott is here for open house today and I haven't had a chance to check progress on here. Sorry about that. The main ve shouldn't be that high unless MAF wasn't failed fully or you don't have the fuel system to support it. I assume you have the fuel system since it was already tuned on maf?

[pganci]

You mind posting a pic of your main ve table? The 3d picture... Bill Elliott is here for open house today and I haven't had a chance to check progress on here. Sorry about that. The main ve shouldn't be that high unless MAF wasn't failed fully or you don't have the fuel system to support it. I assume you have the fuel system since it was already tuned on maf?

No worries, give Bill my regards.

Before you say WTF, when I saw that it was adding 60% each time it went past 3000rpm or 130 kpa I put 20000 at 210 kpa and multiplied 1.5 from 3000 rpm up, and interpolated to see if it would normalize and not say 60%.

I failed the maf by zeroing out the maf cal, setting the 3 dtc's, maf fail high to 0 and low to 10000 and set dynamic disable/enable to 8100/8000.

Fuel should be fine, running in-tank double pumpers on a hobb's switch and I can run through the gears open throttle when in maf only.

As always I appreciate your help.

Paul


vve.JPG

[schpenxel]

Yeah, it shouldn't be anywhere near that high unless you're making 3000RWHP or something, lol.

So, something else is going on. Can you post the most recent tune and a log that goes along with it?

[pganci]

Yeah, it shouldn't be anywhere near that high unless you're making 3000RWHP or something, lol.

So, something else is going on. Can you post the most recent tune and a log that goes along with it?

Great I have another gremlin. Here is my current tune and a log from yesterdays.

Thanks for looking at it.




Ganci E38 T42 Dyno 3.00 Pulley Beta 06.27.2015.2 New.hpt
06.27.2015.5ve.hpl

[schpenxel]

Think I found it.

It looks like the MAF is still enabled. Is the MAF physically plugged in? You need to set the MAF fail frequency to something really low like 10hz. It's in engine diag-->airflow, MAF frequency fail high.

Setting dynamic mode to 8100 or whatever you had it set to does NOT disable the MAF. All that does it makes it use both the MAF and VE table up to 8100 RPM's, where on stock tunes it switches over to ONLY the MAF around 3500-4000.

Once you disable the MAF I imagine your VE table is so far off that you'd be better off going back to something closer to the original one.. A lot of the VVE table looks to be at least double what it needs to be, maybe triple.

So, I'd disable the MAF first and switch back to something closer to the original VVE data, maybe multiply the whole virtual VE table x 1.1 or 1.2 or something like that to try to keep it on the rich side to get you started..

Then go back to logging.

If you ever do want to dial in the MAF, you need to add maf HZ to what you're logging

[GHuggins]

But, leave MAF out of the scanner for your sd datalogging Once you get the MAF killed, go back to the original VE where you copied the last 100kpa line and pasted and multiplied that into your highest kpa level. Then restart....

[pganci]

Think I found it.

It looks like the MAF is still enabled. Is the MAF physically plugged in? You need to set the MAF fail frequency to something really low like 10hz. It's in engine diag-->airflow, MAF frequency fail high.

Setting dynamic mode to 8100 or whatever you had it set to does NOT disable the MAF. All that does it makes it use both the MAF and VE table up to 8100 RPM's, where on stock tunes it switches over to ONLY the MAF around 3500-4000.

Once you disable the MAF I imagine your VE table is so far off that you'd be better off going back to something closer to the original one.. A lot of the VVE table looks to be at least double what it needs to be, maybe triple.

So, I'd disable the MAF first and switch back to something closer to the original VVE data, maybe multiply the whole virtual VE table x 1.1 or 1.2 or something like that to try to keep it on the rich side to get you started..

Then go back to logging.

If you ever do want to dial in the MAF, you need to add maf HZ to what you're logging

Yes the MAF was still plugged in. When I was doing it I had the maf fail high to 0 and low to 10000. What should I set the dynamic airflow to?

[GHuggins]

8100 & 8000 should be good enough. Shouldn't even be in the equation after you fail the maf...