What in the World could be causing this Idle / Timing Issue???

[pganci]

Thank you for taking a look at it. I am currently running a 3inch pulley at up to 11psi, when I run the 2.75 I hit 14.5 but it looses any finesse that I have gotten it to. With the original dyno tune that really had bad drivability and would only allow 13degrees of timing because the abuse torque mgt that I just fixed it made over 650 to the wheels AWD.

Having ADD I can't accept it not being all it can be and I am determined to get it there.

[pganci]

So you mentioned a few things to check. I know the basics and a little bit of knowledge is dangerous so that is what I am but I am sure I can figure things out once being pointed in the proper direction.

1) You say speed density is partially touched and not tuned in boosted regions. Which tables are these?

2) When say blended is that VE/MAF? I really don't understand VE tuning as of yet, I believe I switched it 2back to blended by putting the Dynamic Airflow settings to 2800/2500 but that resulted in my completely losing my launch. If I would stab the throttle from a stop it would drop on its face for a second then launch hard. What tables do I have to mess with for this.

3) Can you elaborate on injection timing?

4) How do you adjust o2 settings for the headers?

5) I have tried adjusting the minimum airflow down lower. It was originally in the 15's at idle but if I go lower than where its at now the idle dips low and then bounces back whenever I let off the throttle. I understand AFR when in PE mode but do not when its not, how would I go about adjusting the AFR when not in PE.


Again, Thanks for the input.

Here's a few vids from Dyno day so you can see what I'm working with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWjDR9RVeo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L32hHZMj_qc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGslTS_m4jg

[GHuggins]

So you mentioned a few things to check. I know the basics and a little bit of knowledge is dangerous so that is what I am but I am sure I can figure things out once being pointed in the proper direction.

1) You say speed density is partially touched and not tuned in boosted regions. Which tables are these?
- If your using 2.25 all you need to do is go to your edit tab and click on Virtual Volumetric Efficiency. This will pull up your SD fueling table. I attached a pic to illustrate how yours is off.

2) When say blended is that VE/MAF? I really don't understand VE tuning as of yet, I believe I switched it 2back to blended by putting the Dynamic Airflow settings to 2800/2500 but that resulted in my completely losing my launch. If I would stab the throttle from a stop it would drop on its face for a second then launch hard. What tables do I have to mess with for this.
- Yes this is what I mean for blended. But typically you set these 100 rpms away from one another such as 2800/2700. Most likely it was briefly falling on it's face due to speed density not being tuned. An absolute must for your setup...

3) Can you elaborate on injection timing?
- When you install a cam with more overlap into an engine that's still using a no overlap cam injection timing setting, you wind up with fuel basically being pulled into the cylinder and right back out into the exhaust because the injectors inject so soon to vaporize the fuel on the backside of a hot intake valve. On top of this you've thrown a blower into the equation which typically from what I've seen exaborates things. I will usually change injection timing for the addition of a blower or turbo, much less the fact that you have a cam. You could safely add something like 20 or 22 to your entire injection timing Boundary table without any problems I would think. Don't be surprised if you have to take fuel out. Thats what your after here.

4) How do you adjust o2 settings for the headers?
- Go under Open/Closed Loop - O2 Proportional Airflow - Multiply by .93 then under O2 Integrator Delay - multiply by something like 1.18 for starters. Your looking for actual air fuel ratio to match commanded as close as possible while holding steady rpms around 1400 to 1500. These settings should get you very close.

5) I have tried adjusting the minimum airflow down lower. It was originally in the 15's at idle but if I go lower than where its at now the idle dips low and then bounces back whenever I let off the throttle. I understand AFR when in PE mode but do not when its not, how would I go about adjusting the AFR when not in PE.
Take 2 out of idle airflow up to around 1200 rpms then make your last numbers in the charts something like 16 to 18 and interpolate between the two ends of each row. Then to correctly correct the idle dip or stumble go to your idle section under airflow proportional and multiply this table by something like 1.1 and under idle integral airflow multiply by something like .5. This will cause your rpms to come down much softer. However if your tuner used these tables to "heighten" the effects of the cam, you may loose some cam lope at idle. I would also highly recommend adding something like 6 degrees of timine from .24 to 800 rpms then interpolate from 800 to 1800 rpms then add something like 4 blending down to 2 degrees from .28 to .48 for the entire rows and then of course smoothing for those...

Again, Thanks for the input.

Here's a few vids from Dyno day so you can see what I'm working with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWjDR9RVeo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L32hHZMj_qc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGslTS_m4jg

These should hopefully all help you out. You will need to have to redo all fueling after this. For the SD all you need to do is build a histogram to datalog af corrections or fuel trim corrections off of fuel trims to dial it in. Don't focus on individual cells, just make sure it's smooth and withen +/- 5% or closer if you get comfortable enough with it. You absolutely must use a wideband for PE or WOT tuning in general...

[pganci]

GHuggins, thanks for all the information and direction. It unfortunately leaves me with more questions and I like to fully understand something prior to messing with it.

1) I am using 2.25 and I've seen the Virtual Volumetric Table. I unfortunately do not yet know what to log and evaluate to make changes here. You mentioned you were going to send an attachment?

2) I take it once I work on the VE I can renable the Dynamic Airflow with better results.

3) If I add 20 -22 how would l know if I am not too high or too low and is it something that needs to be tweaked to find the exact timing, my cam has 10 degrees of overlap if I remember correctly? When you say take fuel out, I may already know how this is done I just didn't know that that is what I am doing, how is that done?

4) This sounds straight forward, I should just keep making adjustments until CMD Afr matches as close to Actual.

5) This also sounds pretty straight forward.

Thanks

[GHuggins]

I actually got interrupted the first time I was typing this up and my computer went to sleep. Did the auto restore, but didn't get the pics back apparently. Sorry didn't recheck that. Will try to post the two pics this time... The two pics are showing the one from your tune and then something more on the lines of what it might look like after done.

To tune VE go into and fail your MAF. Start a seperate tune to do this or rather start by saving a new tune file. Then go to your MAF table and "0" it out. This isn't necessary, just something I like to do to make sure it's not referrenced. Then go to airflow dynamic and set disable really high to something like 8100 and reenable to 8000. Under Engine Diag - Airflow Maf frequency fail high - set to 0 / maf frequency fail low - set to 10000. Under DTC's set P0101, P0102 & P0103 set all to fail first error... This should put you into "Full" SD... Now go to your Scanner and first and foremost remove the MAF pids from your main table... Go to histograms and set up a histogram to look EXACTLY like your VE table. You can watch some of Greg Bannish's youtube videos to see how to do this if your unsure... You can set this up in your main table and use it to dial in your fuel corrections. It's adding and deviding out fuel trim corrections for both banks...

((([PID.6]+[PID.8])/2)+([PID.7]+[PID.9])/2)))

Then this is a Air Fuel Error Pid that will display just like the fuel correction pid if your using a wideband...

(([AUX.20121]/[PID.6001])-1)*100

Once these are in your main table you can use either to plot against your histogram for "quick" and "accurate" corrections...

As for injection timing, what your looking for there is to keep adding to it until your no longer needing to remove fuel via your SD or MAF tables. You can start by adding less and keep adding until your no longer taking away fuel, but from what I've seen you should be able to easily start with 20 and add from there. Use the boundary table for this.

Keep in mind your using a LS3 ecm, so your going to have rich after flash concerns. You'll probably want to make a timer to count up to 15 minutes of engine idle time before you start datalogging any adjustments made. Otherwise it will really throw your tune off. Might even want to do a couple WOT pulls before datalogging only if your fueling able.

You can also put it into open loop and use wideband only to make quick corrections without worrying so much about the rich after flash issue just to get you in the ballpark before you really start dialing in the tune.

Hope this all helps.

[GHuggins]

GHuggins, thanks for all the information and direction. It unfortunately leaves me with more questions and I like to fully understand something prior to messing with it.

1) I am using 2.25 and I've seen the Virtual Volumetric Table. I unfortunately do not yet know what to log and evaluate to make changes here. You mentioned you were going to send an attachment?

2) I take it once I work on the VE I can renable the Dynamic Airflow with better results.

3) If I add 20 -22 how would l know if I am not too high or too low and is it something that needs to be tweaked to find the exact timing, my cam has 10 degrees of overlap if I remember correctly? When you say take fuel out, I may already know how this is done I just didn't know that that is what I am doing, how is that done?

4) This sounds straight forward, I should just keep making adjustments until CMD Afr matches as close to Actual.
Only in closed loop and after you know your open loop fueling is pretty dang spot on

5) This also sounds pretty straight forward.

Thanks

[pganci]

Thanks I'll be trying some of these this week and I'll let you know what comes out.

[pganci]

Well I spent sometime playing this weekend and I have smoothed some things out. I was able to cut the airflow back at idle now its idling at 32/34 g/cyl instead of 40/44.

I went to work on my VE but there is no paste option, am I missing something here?

If I wanted to switch to SD only what changes would I need to make and is it just a matter of tuning the VE to get the AFR cmd and actual to match? This may be a stupid question but is CMD afr when not in PE taken from the Stoich AFR table, mine is set to 14.15 across the board. From looking at other tunes I don't think that it should be.

Thanks

Paul

[schpenxel]

Well I spent sometime playing this weekend and I have smoothed some things out. I was able to cut the airflow back at idle now its idling at 32/34 g/cyl instead of 40/44.

I went to work on my VE but there is no paste option, am I missing something here?

If I wanted to switch to SD only what changes would I need to make and is it just a matter of tuning the VE to get the AFR cmd and actual to match? This may be a stupid question but is CMD afr when not in PE taken from the Stoich AFR table, mine is set to 14.15 across the board. From looking at other tunes I don't think that it should be.

Thanks

Paul

That's a tricky question. Pump fuel is commonly actually around 14.1.. so in a sense that's correct, BUT, most widebands are going to display 14.7 when at stoich regardless of what stoich is for your actual fuel.

That's why tuning in lambda is much simpler and makes my head explode less often.

The short answer is yes, you want commanded and actual to be the same. The quirk though is that what you're seeing on the wideband (if you're tuning in AFR) is likely going to be wrong unless you've went in and changed stoich for the wideband to match the fuel (14.1) as well.

I'd probably just put the AFR table back to 14.7, change the whole VE table by a few percent to make up the difference, and just base everything on 14.7. OR I'd just use lambda and then not have to worry about it

[GHuggins]

Finally got a break from the EcoBoost... Paul, glad to hear things are coming along and showing improvements... You should really notice a little better mpg with the lower airflow in your min table not to mention the better spark timing and fuel actually burning in the cylinder and not in the exhaust via the injection timing. A lot of people say to set stoich to 14.1 for E10, but your already tuning for this regardless when you stop to think about it unless you just happen to be tuning it with a 3 to 5 percent alcohol rated "non-ethanol" fuel. So to keep things simple, I set stoich to 14.67 like factory or leaner or richer depending on build. For yours I would typically set it to 14.55 to 14.65... This will cause you to have to retune VE and MAF...

Unless things have changed, I can't use 2.24's scanner and paste special anything into 2.25. So I typically open the tune into 2.24 and then make my changes and copy and paste into 2.25. Which come to think of it won't help you a bit....... You can copy your VE table with titles into acel and modify then copy and repaste, but that seems like a long way around. The easiest thing to do would be to apply a 2 bar OS with an applied TCS Patch. Then you can tune in 2.24 or 2.25 with copy paste methods. Maybe HP has gotten some of this fixed with their latest updates? Don't know. I just know sometimes it worked, then update and no longer working... It was just hit and miss...

I think I posted an ecel sheet somewhere in here for you to plug straight into your new tables. Just make sure to keep all 3 tables the same. This was just to get it started, so you could start tuning in the SD. It's going to be way off with the one I had posted... You may even have to multiply the whole table by "x" amount to get it to hit desired a/f on a cold start...

[schpenxel]

I've been able to copy one or two columns at a time from 2.24 scanner to 2.25 editor, but that's about it. It's pretty random on whether it works or not.

[pganci]

If I apply the patches for SD can it be switched back by un-applying and doing a full re-write?

Is there a recommended How To Guide for doing SD, I am finding bits and pieces but I just cant see the whole picture of what I need to do.

[schpenxel]

You can turn the maf on or off even with the "SD" OS, so no need to switch back. You can if you want though.

I'll try to write up some details when I'm not on my phone.

[pganci]

You can turn the maf on or off even with the "SD" OS, so no need to switch back. You can if you want though.

I'll try to write up some details when I'm not on my phone.

Thanks

[GHuggins]

Paul, post 25 explains it a little...

[schpenxel]

If I apply the patches for SD can it be switched back by un-applying and doing a full re-write?

Is there a recommended How To Guide for doing SD, I am finding bits and pieces but I just cant see the whole picture of what I need to do.

Basically, do the patch, it will tell you to save the file as a new file name. Do that.

Before you write the new file, you'll need to make sure the MAP sensor settings aren't screwed up. On mine it changed them to some #'s that did not match the sensor I had, so watch out for that

Then you'll also need to check out the VE and Boost VE tables and get some initial data in those. Easiest way for the regular VE table is to just open up your original tune, go to the virtual VE editor, and copy/paste that data into your new "SD" tune. That's assuming copy/paste works right now. If I remember correctly your original Virtual VE table looked a little nutty, but I'm not sure what else to start you off with.

Actually, GHuggins posted a sample LS3 VE table that you could try too.

Boost VE gets more complicated because it will start out blank. If you can do the first part and send me your file I'll create a very rough VE table for you. I built a sheet that tries to extrapolate one from the VE table. It isn't a very good way of doing it, but it will at least be something you can start off with

Clff notes: Apply patch, save new file, check MAP sensor settings, fill in VE table, fill in boost VE table, write entire

Keep in mind what Ghuggins said about fuel trims right after re-flashing. They will go crazy at first, so the first 15 minutes or so of data is pretty useless if you're running closed loop. Open loop isn't as bad

As long as it's close enough to start the car you should be able to get some data and make adjustments from there

[pganci]

Ok, i know they say there are no stupid questions but sometimes there are. I want to make sure i am looking at the corrects tables.

Can you specify which table for MAP sensor settings as well as the VE and VE boost tables?

Thanks for the info.

[schpenxel]

Depends if you're running 2.24 or 2.25. In 2.25 Map sensor is in engine-->airflow-->general-->MAP sensor linear/B/offset

VE is in the same page if running the 2 bar OS. Labeled Main VE "Primary" and "Boost"

[pganci]

I don't see the VE's on my airflow screen??


Capture.PNG

[schpenxel]

You aren't running a custom OS. That is the whole point.