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Thread: At 25 seconds from startup

  1. #1
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    At 25 seconds from startup

    E40 LS2...what does the PCM reference 25 seconds after a cold start. And what is used before that? I've got something pretty far off and cant seem to find it even by comparing old tunes that were good with my current tune.


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
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    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
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  2. #2
    Senior Tuner Iam Broke's Avatar
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    Might be going into closed loop, post a log if you want help.
    '12 Camaro T3 2SS/RS LS3 M6, SLP TVS 2300, Flex Fuel

  3. #3
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    While I want results, I AM very interested in a direct answer to my original question. Obviously things start with cranking and startup tables but my dramatic change at 25 sec. means to me different tables are being used at that point.
    As to closed loop, I don't see that as a possibility, no way its logging temp correctly if its lying to the PCM, ECT at 25 sec was 66 deg F. Thought maybe the WB o2 isnt up to temp till 25 sec but I always have the key on while setting up logging and of course the change is VERY noticeable as the AF goes from 7 to 16. Stuttering rich to lean is hard to miss...
    Attached Files Attached Files


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
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  4. #4
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    You sure it isn't 66 degrees celsius = 150 farenheit? I don't have my laptop hooked up to look at your datalog, but I bet that's what it is. AND do you have a 160tstat? SO your issue is right around where fresh cool coolant is rushing into the block, but this usually causes the fuel trims to go the other way... Perhaps your open loop fueling is way to rich = running at air fuel ratio of 7? I believe getting your open loop fueling closer to closed loop, so it doesn't really have to tremendously correct would help your problem. Don't know of a single open loop setup being commanded that rich... Typically 12's then gradually steps back up into the 14's before going into closed loop. Might be your whole problem right there.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  5. #5
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    yes, its Farenheit and even so, the motor isnt going from 60 to 150 in 25 seconds. CL is at 131F on my setup. AF of 7.x is only for first 25 sec then it suddenly goes to 16.x after another minute or two 14.x. I had VE table giving me 13.8-14.3 under most part throttle conditions in SD but once I switched back to CL I can't find where its throwing the VE numbers off. Not running 160 tstat.


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
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  6. #6
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Idle>RPM>Startup .........its double stock?

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    Idle>RPM>Startup .........its double stock?

    Ed M
    Ed, haven't heard from you in a little while... I haven't seen the tune, but that's what I was wondering in my previous post... Really think there's way too much of a swing from open loop to closed loop from what was described with the air fuel values.

    Also perhaps I mistook what was previously described, but you should be waiting until things are settled down at operating temp before tuning your VE table. If your VE table is right, it should stay right at or atleast pretty close to whatever you have stoich set to... Also stoich shouldn't be changed to where it's much richer than 14.55 to 14.6 due to the fact that O2's won't allow it to run much richer than this.
    Last edited by GHuggins; 04-19-2015 at 03:03 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
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  8. #8
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    We finally found and bought a house and were in the midst of moving from our temporay abode. Been tied up a bit and remote tuning via computer a bit for my northern buddy. But things are calming down. and I actually saw on my phone I got a PM from Widebody06....we were working last april until he went silent as well.....must be reunion day :-) Hope all is well with you.

    His WB is showing 7.0 AFR and then all of a sudden it snaps to 14-16. The commanded Afr seems to be tracking from like 11sh to 14sh after startup but the Startup table is double that of stock???? I agree the temps are not there to snap from open to closed loop...it is an internal time I would think and that is the first that looked facockta...

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  9. #9
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    VE table was developed in SD mode with data taken ONLY when at full temp. Startup tuning obviously is done cold, and there fore I never change VE values except tweaks to the 800 rpm data, which I limit to 5% max change.

    IRC I went the larger startup values when I discovered the previous tuner was using a 2 multiplier where the rest of the world uses 1.x x being low numbers, unfortunately I lost my notes relating to that and as stated before, I cant seem to find any significant differences between the old tune and current, as far as something like a multiplier. Maybe I accidentally over wrote the original as some point.

    Of course, I'm aware the startup figures look excessive, I had hoped to test that possibility this weekend. Which brings me to why I asked which table are involved to and after the 25 second mark...I am more interested in learning than having an obvious potential issue pointed out, when I was already considering that.

    Please dont take anything above as rejecting the help being offered, just want to explain what I do know and why I asked the original question.




    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Ed, haven't heard from you in a little while... I haven't seen the tune, but that's what I was wondering in my previous post... Really think there's way too much of a swing from open loop to closed loop from what was described with the air fuel values.

    Also perhaps I mistook what was previously described, but you should be waiting until things are settled down at operating temp before tuning your VE table. If your VE table is right, it should stay right at or atleast pretty close to whatever you have stoich set to... Also stoich shouldn't be changed to where it's much richer than 14.55 to 14.6 due to the fact that O2's won't allow it to run much richer than this.


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
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  10. #10
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    The startup table I referenced is based on seconds after start, yeah the table ends at 8 secs in the software, but maybe it keeps going to say 25 sec.....

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  11. #11
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    How about how long it takes the wideband to heatup and come on line.....

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  12. #12
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    Yes, that why I posted above- "Thought maybe the WB o2 isnt up to temp till 25 sec but I always have the key on while setting up logging" I remember the user manual saying something to the effect that the WB heater is active when the key is on, its the LC2 Innovative.

    Just read the manual again, and while it says its bad to "preheat" it, that's what I've been doing during PC data capture. I can get at the interface(it a has status led), so next startup, I'll confirm its done warming up and is ready to show accurate info at startup. But again, its obviously rich initially which also confirms the 7.x AF.

    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    How about how long it takes the wideband to heatup and come on line.....

    Ed M


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
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  13. #13
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    As we thought, lowering startup fueling was the answer to correct initial AFR. I loped off 40% and that was pretty close. I'll tweak it in. FWIW, the LC2 seems to be reporting correctly immediately since I have the key on during data capture setup and its therefore initialized and warmed up.


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
    SCSS oil & afr Innovate LC2

  14. #14
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    That's good to hear. Think the ECM was over correcting from the really rich air fuel causing your lean spikes.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  15. #15
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    Well two things about that...first I neglected to notice my logging started well before cranking so that 25 second mark was more like the 8 seconds. that the startup table covers(I feel bad missing that but no one else noticed either)

    Second now that its in the ball park you cant hear the transition off the startup table but its still wants to lean out a lot, so I've added fuel in VE and I'm half way there, actually back to stock for the next test. Looks like the VE might cover it since I also want to richen the low end in general but if I end up too fat, I'm going to tweak ECT related fueling so its only richer when cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    That's good to hear. Think the ECM was over correcting from the really rich air fuel causing your lean spikes.


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
    SCSS oil & afr Innovate LC2

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widebody06 View Post
    Well two things about that...first I neglected to notice my logging started well before cranking so that 25 second mark was more like the 8 seconds. that the startup table covers(I feel bad missing that but no one else noticed either)
    Really??????? And for the record it is actually 18.751 seconds from startup per your log......

    Idle>RPM>Startup .........its double stock?

    Ed M
    The startup table I referenced is based on seconds after start, yeah the table ends at 8 secs in the software, but maybe it keeps going to say 25 sec.....

    Ed M
    Thanks,

    Ed M
    Last edited by mowton; 04-21-2015 at 05:43 AM.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  17. #17
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    Ooops

    Apologies ED, your completely right, I'm at a loss as to what I saw that gave me approx 8 seconds. I felt bad cause I thought was asking for help but giving bogus info.

    And to really mess my mind, after adjusting startup, its now looking like approx 10 sec. to where it stabilizes which I'm taking to be the point where startup fueling ends. Yesterdays initial startup below. Hoping after not sleeping, I dont have that wrong too.


    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    Really??????? And for the record it is actually 18.751 seconds from startup per your log......





    Thanks,

    Ed M
    Attached Files Attached Files


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
    SCSS oil & afr Innovate LC2

  18. #18
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widebody06 View Post
    Apologies ED, your completely right, I'm at a loss as to what I saw that gave me approx 8 seconds. I felt bad cause I thought was asking for help but giving bogus info.

    And to really mess my mind, after adjusting startup, its now looking like approx 10 sec. to where it stabilizes which I'm taking to be the point where startup fueling ends. Yesterdays initial startup below. Hoping after not sleeping, I dont have that wrong too.
    No problem, it gets a bit frustrating at times where you provide info and its not recognized. we take alot of our spare time to support this and other forums and hope that it helps. Dont always have the purest answer, but hope to direct problem solving in the right direction.....much what I expect when I have issues. The other item that gets me a bit frosted is when someone has a TT setup, buys HPTuner or other software and then their initial post is "what should I do to tune my car"......agggggggggh :-) We all have spent 100's of hrs behind books, videos and the wheel to learn the basics to establish a solid platform to build our tuning expertise.

    Glad you got yours straightened out and sorry for the rant

    Ed M
    Last edited by mowton; 04-21-2015 at 07:21 AM.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  19. #19
    Tuner Widebody06's Avatar
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    My rant is directed to the people who make HP Tuner. I find it incomprehensible that their answer to supporting the use of their product is 99% based on this forum and users helping users. One doesn't have to very smart to know they can't spend the time to teach each purchaser how to tune. One also does not have to be capable of 'writing' HP Tuner to know they have a mountain of info that would help make the learning process much faster and easier instead of the total joke that the process is. My take is that people who want to tune only their car(s) will spend months to find the info to do their tune by what essential is by rote and therefore never really understand what they are doing. The bulk of the info that is here in stickies and such is not only dated but a jumble of different PCM with very little to even tell you which info is applicable to which PCM/engine, after checking it all out, I make a point of not confusing myself by attempting to use it


    '06 BOM M6 Widebody RA6 GTO
    Trick Flow 550 kit( 225 heads, Track Max cam, springs, chain etc)
    ARH longtube , MBS HiFlow cats, Corsa Touring X-pipe SS exhaust
    Wilson FAST 92mm manifold #42 DeatschWerks Injectors soon
    Vararam Intake Duspeed not installed yet
    B&M shifter 3.91 rear,Monster level 4 Harrop diff cover
    CTS-V V2 brakes BC BR coilovers Whiteline everything
    DSS AH axles, Spohn LC arms, Toe Bar
    CCW 505a 10.5x19, 12.5x20 Nitto Invo 285& 345
    SCSS oil & afr Innovate LC2

  20. #20
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    My rant is directed to the people who make HP Tuner. I find it incomprehensible that their answer to supporting the use of their product is 99% based on this forum and users helping users. One doesn't have to very smart to know they can't spend the time to teach each purchaser how to tune. One also does not have to be capable of 'writing' HP Tuner to know they have a mountain of info that would help make the learning process much faster and easier instead of the total joke that the process is. My take is that people who want to tune only their car(s) will spend months to find the info to do their tune by what essential is by rote and therefore never really understand what they are doing. The bulk of the info that is here in stickies and such is not only dated but a jumble of different PCM with very little to even tell you which info is applicable to which PCM/engine, after checking it all out, I make a point of not confusing myself by attempting to use it
    About a year ago I had the same feeling. I hadn't been at this long and was extremely frustrated by the vague help files and no real how tos from HPT proper. But then I started reading the forums more and more. What became apparent is that particularly with the new ECMs there is a TON of variation in the way the data is used by the ECM. For example, I have an 07 Cadillac CTS V with an E67 ECM. This is what is commonly referred to as the V1 (LS1/LS2 based platform). The V2 (LSA based platform) uses the same E67 ECM. You might assume the pin outs for the ECMs would be similar. They are NOT. As the V1s are naturally aspirated and the V2s are SCd like you might expect there is substantial difference in the tune. Details like whether or not fuel pump is PWM greatly affect what data is even used in these calibrations/tunes. Is an IAT 2 sensor fitted, if not can I hook one to the ECM and have it work? All of this becomes a research project to see what you can do to your car. Is it frustrating? You bet. The thing that makes it even MORE frustrating is the lack of good tuners out there (no offense to some of the pros on this board).

    My long winded point is that HPT would not only have to tailor their code and help files to each ECM but also to each OS to make things more user friendly. By the time they bake in the cost to do that this product is significantly more expensive. In addition I suspect they are subject to pretty strict non-disclosure terms with the big three and if they are not they probably don't want to show up on their radar any more than necessary. This further complicates and increases the cost associated with the product.

    This is one of the main reasons I tell anyone that will listen NOT to mod their daily driver unless they have another vehicle they can use for an extended period (time period depends upon the experience of the person tuning). I have had my car up and down for 1 1/2 years now. It is a stupidly big first build (blown, new heads, new cam, new injectors, new fuel pump, new MAF). The last thing that I found that was killing me was the alternator. The alternator, WTF right?!? Voltage variation between cold start and hot restart and an issue with the pump overwhelming the stock regulator was enough to change fuel pressure and therefore my AFR dframatically. It took me forever to find even after I fitted an electronic FP sensor.

    Now having said all of this time, for my rant...

    When is the new Beta going to be completed so that we can actually edit the VE params/tables? If the competition did this years ago I would think it would dramatically increase the marketability of this product as well as make frustrated users like myself smile