Need to Clear My Conscience About This.

[omega_5]

I finally had a chance to look over your tune last night; spent a good hour or so going over it.
It's pretty obvious from looking at it that the tune was set up specifically with hot lap racing in mind. Mid range timing is conservative to avoid knock, not running crazy boost.
Honestly, the base tune I developed for bone stock cars is more aggressive. And some of the guys that are running those tunes are younger guys that beat on their cars pretty bad.

Term - I see nothing that you should be concerned about.

[Terminator2]

Mid range timing is conservative to avoid knock? I run plenty of cars higher with absolutely no KR. I would bet most tunes out there need to run higher timing to have a happy motor. Not trying to call you out Omega it's just I see that posted by so many people and I think people need to understand that timing does need to be raised in most cases. Not necessarily high load areas as those people seem to have down usually but mid and low range can usually be bumped a good amount. Just my opinion. Sorry to thread jack.

Side note: Me saying this does not insinuate that the lower timing caused any of your issues.

I agree I have run a ton more on my own car on 93 and I planned on running a couple more degrees of timing but because of the issues the car was having I left the timing low like that.

[Terminator2]

I finally had a chance to look over your tune last night; spent a good hour or so going over it.
It's pretty obvious from looking at it that the tune was set up specifically with hot lap racing in mind. Mid range timing is conservative to avoid knock, not running crazy boost.
Honestly, the base tune I developed for bone stock cars is more aggressive. And some of the guys that are running those tunes are younger guys that beat on their cars pretty bad.

Term - I see nothing that you should be concerned about.

Thank you Tyler and yes I generally do make my files more aggressive than this but the fact that I knew this car spends most of its time racing and also the issues the car was having lead me to keep the timing very low. I did a few revisions but nothing crazy most were 0.88 PE lambda and the first file actually did have 1-2* more timing in it but still super conservative at 6.5-7.0 at 3000-3500 and 12.8* max where normally on 93 I would run about 14.5-15* max timing and 8-9* at 3000-3500.

[TBSteck]

Log?

Which logs would you like? I even have a log when the engine ... (I guess I can't say blown) ... smoked a whole lot ... let's put it that way, is that ok?

[Terminator2]

I have not even seen the last log of of when it went up in smoke yet so I will be seeing this one for the first time.

[Terminator2]

I only asked for the final log to see if we could make sense of what might have happened "mechanically".

Of course. I too would like to know what happened although the log may not show exactly what happened it might. I would not be shocked to see it drop rail pressure to half of commanded and end up going lean and misfiring as a result. Never seen one on 93 drop rail pressure before even my car when I cranked it to the moon with an adjustable pill mod and ran up to 32psi and 0.88 lambda. In spite of making 430 wtrq and 340 whp on 93 it Never once even came close to maxing the hpfp. My car still has never been touched same turbo same motor and it's 2nd owner may or may not maintain it as well as I did. It has about 70K miles on it now half were driven by me doing several rolling burnouts a day and every tuning and bolt on parts experiment possible in those 3 years.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Am I the only one who got 19* of timing of pump 91 CA fuel?

[383_Stroker]

Hi, this is Tim, the owner of the car Terminator is talking about.

First I would like to thank Terminator to care enough to seek out others opinions. Obviously I would like to figure this out too.

Some quick history of car:
- 08 Solstice GXP - bone stock until these tunes in late December '14
- Purchased new mainly to autocross and hillclimb but use it on the street as a daily driver. I say daily driver but not driven much as a daily driver.
- It just turned over 36,000 miles, as you tell for a 7 year old car don't driven a lot on the street as a daily driver.
- Purchased all upgrades from DDMWorks
+ Lighten Flywheel and clutch by DDMWorks
+ Solstice GXP Mach Exhaust
+ Kappa-2.0L High Flow Catless downpipe
+ Solstice/Sky 2.0L LNF Intercooler by DDMWorks
+ KW Coilover Variant 3
+ HP Tuners VCM Suite Pro Package
- Dave from DDMWorks gave me a "temporary tune" so I could drive it after the upgrades were added.

This car never had a miss nor did it ever throw a DTC code before this upgrades and tunes.

Initially put in DDMWorks tune and had no misses at the 3000 +-500 RPM range.
Every tune from Terminator from the 1st one would miss at the range and only at the range. His tunes pulled good (except for the misses) ... well until that "very bad day". If I would put in DDMWorks tune back in, no missing at all. It had other issues but since that wasn't my base I didn't worry about that. Terminator did give me one tune that only missed a couple times in that RPM range with about 7-10 pulls through that range which was an amazing improvement since before it would always miss a lot through that range at 70%+ throttle given.
CDNITE you said it was "user error", what error could I have done? This car was only raced once on a very tight course with the payment cold and bald Hoosiers, so no real hard driving. And did a few pulls, mainly through that range with a few up close to redline but since I was on the street doing this, had to kill it when I was getting to the triple digit mark.

And I do understand this stuff a little bit, had LS1Edit and tuned a LSI Camaro from scratch by myself, which ran pretty good but I really kept a close eye on the WB #'s. I would have done this car but I don't have the time right now to learn the LNF engine w turbo - quite a bit different from the LSI engine which is why I wanted a professional to do it.

I'm going to get the engine taken a part so I can fix it. Any ideas on what I should look at or replace? Well, expect the pistons, I'm pretty sure there is a hole in one of them. The car was still drivable, I drove very slow home - about 5 miles, oh but the smoke.

I have every tune I was given and every log I ever did, if you would like to help out Terminator and me figure this out I would GLADLY send them to you.

The added airflow and load could have caused spark blowout that the original tune wouldn't. I've tuned several cars that ran fine on the stock tune but when cranked up would misfire. All were cured by changing plugs and closing up the gap. However, i wouldn't recommend making pulls on a misfiring motor due to the extreme changes in load that causes, talk about a shock to the system.

[codename Bil Doe]

Am I the only one who got 19* of timing of pump 91 CA fuel?

Yes because you cray cray. The 85 next to the 87 doesn't mean octane.

[codename Bil Doe]

Depends greatly on your optimum torque table. My low and low mid spark is in the 40's and 50's. I'm strictly talking peak timing at full boosties on 91. He's my hero for pulling that off.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Yes because you cray cray. The 85 next to the 87 doesn't mean octane.

well on E85 in florida i ran 26* unverified max power. I think that was where most people are ending up timing wise on E. Haven't been tracking those results much due to lack of E stations in my area. For some reason that particular motor didn't care about being wailed on, never did figure out why it was so high. Even a timing light test showed it was running on the money.

cant wait to see the smoke screen log

[Terminator2]

Am I the only one who got 19* of timing of pump 91 CA fuel?

Yes LOL most of the ones I go to tune out there on 91 with a 24 psi tune the most I could get out of them zero knock was 12* maybe 12.8 LOL. Some could have had flaso KR though but I did not want to chance it. MBT timing on 93 is around 14-15 max from what I have seen.

[Terminator2]

The added airflow and load could have caused spark blowout that the original tune wouldn't. I've tuned several cars that ran fine on the stock tune but when cranked up would misfire. All were cured by changing plugs and closing up the gap. However, i wouldn't recommend making pulls on a misfiring motor due to the extreme changes in load that causes, talk about a shock to the system.

He had fresh AC Delcos in gapped at 0.032" IIRC.

[TBSteck]

Sorry for the late post ...

Here are three logs, two from Terminator's tunes (different tunes) and one from DDMWorks (the one that didn't miss around the 3K range). One log is from when the engine went - you can tell by the name.

Finally got the engine out and only did compression test Cyl 2 - 4: 150 and cyl 1: 0 ... I guess we know which cylinder is bad. I decided not to tear it down and delivered the engine whole to the engine guy in Portland, Oregon. He gets the honor of doing it - since he is the one that is actually going to fix it he should. I know a couple of guys that has had this company build them racing engines and I know one is still running after about 6 or 7 years and it is just a dedicated race car.

I asked the guy to tell me what he thought was the issue, when I find out I will let everyone know.

Let me know if you would like to see any more logs (I have 14 more of them) or any tune files (I 12 of those and 1 being the factory tune).

[TBSteck]

Oh, if it matters, I'm using Oregon's 92 octane.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

piston

[gmtech16450yz]

I saw this awhile ago but I knew it was pointless to say anything without seeing a log. I took a quick look at all three logs just now. Ummmmmmm Yeah, THAT'S how you destroy an LNF. All three logs showed HORRIFIC signs of impending doom and I'm sorry to say, extremely poor tuning. Sorry David but that tune you posted could not have possibly been in that car during those logs. The log readings don't match anything that was requested in the tune you posted.

Holy f'ing cr@p that's one of the worst set of logs I've seen in a long time. Yep, a blind tuner could have seen that engine wasn't too happy. Everything I saw was textbook what NOT to do to an LNF.

Sorry. I'm sure you other guys will see what I saw once you get a chance to pick the logs apart. Wow.

[gmtech16450yz]

There is a reason I tell everyone they should just buy HpT and monitor everything I tell them to monitor. Notice how a lot of the things I monitor like KR for each cylinder is not being monitored? Notice how you (TBSteck) are obviously not watching air/fuel ratios? Not trying to be a d*ck but there were plenty of times you were running extremely rich for a long period of time, and extremely lean for a long period of time. I don't recall seeing a tune set up a way that would cause that which means something on the car was failing. I only quick looked at it, and I would have immediately stopped driving the car seeing anything like that. I didn't look at absolutely everything in the log, but I did go through the whole thing pretty quick and took the time out of my day to show these screen shots. Anyone who wants to look over the log can look at the time at the bottom of my screenshots to see what it was I was looking at.

TBSteck, next time I would suggest monitoring more things and knowing what to look for so you know when you have an issue. Just my thoughts.

And yes Mike, I agree with the owner/customer needing to be aware of how HIS engine is running. The problem with that is that's why people buy tuning help from others, they either don't know or don't want to know how to do it themselves. It's perfectly acceptable if a customer doesn't want anything to do with how his engine runs other than to log it while driving and send the logs to someone that knows what they're looking at. I'm not a big fan of gauges, they give you a marginal view of data at best. And when these cars get REALLY fast (like an 700whp Sky, lol), you really don't have time to stare at a gauge when it really matters. I've had passengers say their vision gets blurred when I show them what my car can do, how on earth is the driver supposed to watch a gauge during that? Logging is key. The "customer" did that. All three of those logs showed MAJOR issues with the tune and the way that engine was running. In MY opinion, it's not the "customers" fault that he wasn't warned harshly enough that his engine WOULD blow after seeing those logs. I would literally tell a guy like that to stop driving the car and I would cut all contact and responsibility for what was going to happen if he kept driving it with it tuned like that. But then again, I would never have tuned an LNF to run like any of those three logs showed.

Again, sorry David. (it is David isn't it? It's been a few years.) You asked.

[gmtech16450yz]

John, I totally agree with you on not staring at gauges but I have to say some of those issues are when he was just driving around. I did not look at all of the logs so I will not comment on the others but I can say it wasn't all WOT issues. I will also agree people do not want to learn or don't have the time etc. but people should know generic things like air/fuel etc. I always try to explain this stuff to anyone I tune so they actually pay attention to at least a few things. I have no idea if Term2 saw all of these logs or not so whether or not he could have warned TBSteck is unknown to me but at a minimum 50% of the issue is from TBSteck. Not knowing certain safety issues isn't anyone's fault but his own. Just because I don't know a Military Law doesn't mean they won't hold me liable for breaking it. I do agree that if Term2 saw this stuff he should have said something and done what you said. Even though it was not a specific setting in the tune doesn't mean you shouldn't be kind enough to tell your customer something is wrong. That'll be for them to decide not me.

No problem Mike. Working in a dealership, a good percentage of our customers don't want to know what's wrong with their car, they just want it fixed. I don't have a problem with that, any more than my dentist should have a problem with the fact that I don't floss. He doesn't. He understands that I got lucky with genetically good teeth and brushing once a day is all the effort I want to put into that part of my life. I know the risks. He deals with my level of dental health commitment accordingly. It's all good. lol.

So far it looks like I'm the only one that's looked at the other logs. I just went to close HPTuners and glanced at the Term tune 3 street log. Holy cr@p you guys REALLY have to look at those logs. Absolutely the worst I've seen in years. Injector timing, fuel pressure, ign timing, boost, wideband readings, etc, etc. YIKES!!!!!!!!!

[gmtech16450yz]

Haha exactly John you understand the risks.

As for the log did you look at my screenshots? And what boost? It is only measuring MAP instead of Boost lo Res so who is to say he isn't over boosting? Fuel pressure, injector MS, and wideband I also included in the pics. Definitely yikes! I did not include screenshots of ign timing but it definitely jumps around a good amount. I got so concerned at what I saw I stopped looking. I made sure to take oics of thise things though so hopefully other could learn what to look for.

TBSteck Iknow I've been harsh to some extent but I am sorry for your luck and if you take anything from me on this then I hope it is to learn what to look for and to educate a little more to help prevent stuff like this.

I honestly didn't look at your screenshots Mike because I never look at the gauges in HPT or EFILive so it would have taken me a little bit to figure out what I was looking at! For me it's all about the Chart Display, it shows me everything I need to know. Here's a screenshot from the "street" tune, I swear it's like one of those "Find what's wrong in this picture" puzzles! What ISN'T wrong in this picture? Every single data point is showing horrible things. Not only that, but the driver was doing full throttle pulls on a cold engine! There's so much wrong in this screenshot it will forever go down as one of the worst I've ever seen. (Sorry the config doesn't match the file, I hardly ever look at LNF logs anymore and as you can see the config I pulled up to view it was from 2012.)