Need to Clear My Conscience About This.

[DrLoch]

I would say it got warm. This is from a set of bad valve springs.... wasn't much left IMG_20150305_150142684_HDR.jpg

[cobaltssoverbooster]

see all the carbon build in the damaged section above the top compression ring.... from here it looks to me like its been hurt for a while before this. once pushed it finally jumped to the second ring and then there wasn't enough material left to hold the pressure and goodbye.

[powermizer]

EXACTLY! That's the best way to do it, have the chart display up and running so you can see immediately after a run what it looks like. And yeah, that's another good point about the chart scale settings. I've seen so many guys with the min and max settings so whacked out that they can't see any changes. Setting something like the KR max to a low number like you did makes it super obvious to see when something is wrong. When I'm looking at things like MAF fluctuations at idle, I lower the max levels so that idle airflow fills the whole chart. That way you can really see what's happening clearly. The HPT scanner is an awesome tool, you just have know how to configure it. I do have some config files I could post, but that would take me another hour or so to explain that there are TWO different "config" settings in HPT and the one that most people post is only PART of the config, which is why it doesn't work using other people's configs a lot of the time. lol, let me get off this computer and get something done and maybe some other time I'll get into that!

I would love to see those John......Thanks This is exactly what I was needing.

[powermizer]

I use the Chart Display while I'm logging and for review afterwards and really only use the Histograms to check fuel trim averages. The good thing about the chart is I can see how everything is reacting while I'm cruising. When I do a WOT pull, I can glance at it afterwards when I let off of the throttle to see if anything was out of whack. I like to look over just after I let off the throttle to see if there was any KR since it takes a couple seconds for the chart to run off of the left side of the screen. I also keep things like KR chart settings to a max of 6 so I can easily tell if it's happening by glancing at the chart. No sense in having KR displaying from 0 to 30.

Thanks JimmyS, I hadn't thought much about the scale. Good info.

[TBSteck]

see all the carbon build in the damaged section above the top compression ring.... from here it looks to me like its been hurt for a while before this. once pushed it finally jumped to the second ring and then there wasn't enough material left to hold the pressure and goodbye.

I talked to my engine guy and he said it isn't carbon build up it is the burnt oil. Since my engine (and damage piston) is 2 hours away I haven't actually seen it yet. He said he is saving it for me so I can hang it on my trophy wall - such a funny guy.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

pictures dont give 100% justice so no worries. that is definitely a wall piece.

[PSYKOSTEVO]

Here is my two cents too. Sorry I rarely post. The LNF and LE5 are both highly prone to throwing Cam sensor codes if the engine temperatures are not allowed to reach a set value. I may be wrong on the exact number, but let's say that it is 198 degrees for arguments sake (it's been a while since I've had to look into the actual value). If you program the cooling fans to come on strong so low that the car never warms up above 200 degrees, then the cam sensors will throw a code. I don't think that the engine even properly operates the cams at that point too.

I came across this issue early on when I was tuning for turbo kits on the LE5, and then had it happen early on in 2007 with the LNFs. I basically don't modify my fan settings on the tunes below ~205* for that reason. I let the engine warm up to at least there, and then get the fan speeds up when over 215* or so.

If you want any confirmation that the LNF is a hand grenade waiting to happen, go watch that season of Solstice GXP racing from whatever that show was called on the Speed Channel. On the last episode they had like 10 cars going hot laps at Laguna Seca or somewhere and most of the cars blew something or went into limp mode after literally a couple laps. I think only 2 of the cars actually completed the full number of laps for the final episode.

The LNF is a beautiful little engine for some short distance shenanigans, like a 1/4 drag strip, or parking lot autocross, but if you treat it like a freeway beast with repetitive 140mph freeway pulls or track laps, then kiss its butt goodbye.

[PSYKOSTEVO]

I would say it got warm. This is from a set of bad valve springs.... wasn't much left IMG_20150305_150142684_HDR.jpg

That valve is buried in the piston like a Tostito in a bowl of cheese dip.

[PSYKOSTEVO]

While I don't have HPT at work to look at the tune, I'll give my two cents.
The business we're in is a hazy area of the automotive community. Most car guys understand the importance of a good tune, but have no clue what is involved.
You're always going to get the guys that are trouble.

Here are a few examples I've had to deal with;
- A year after tuning an LSJ; "My car is misfiring cause of your tune". Actual cause; lack of maintenance. Needed new plugs and a MAF clean.
- 8 months after tuning another LSJ; "My car blew cylinder 4 cause of your tune". Actual cause; abused the car with a busted IC pump.
- 1 month after tuning an LNF; "I heard a loud pop from my engine bay. Is the tune bad?" Actual cause; blew an IC hose.
- 6 months after tuning an L67; "I'm getting evap codes cause of your tune". Actual cause; evap system needed service.

Unfortunately, due diligence in a safe tune can only get you so far. The people who don't understand the tuning process will try to blame the tune.

I have taken a few precautions to protect myself in the last few years, though. First, I have a checklist that I go through before any work is done. A mechanically, structurally or diagnostically (unexpected DTCs) unfit car gets refused work. Second, I explain how the process works, and have them sign an agreement with the understanding I'm not responsible if the vehicle is neglected, not maintained, abused outside of design, or further modified outside of design.

In the end, I've seen some of your previous work; you're an expert in the LNF field. Don't let this incident get to you.

Agreed, too many times the tune is blamed by the owner. I stopped tuning people who asked me questions like "What can I do to get the most power out of this?", or "Do you think this will keep up with my buddy's ___________?" I don't have time to sink my work and name into someone who doesn't know how to take care of what they've got. I find myself lately having to explain to second hand LNF owners that there is some basic maintenance that has do be done on these cars, like HPFP, Plugs, MAF sensor cleaning, etc. Some just don't get it. Just because the owners manual says that something should be good for 100,000 miles before service doesn't mean squat. If you want to drive the car like a weekend warrior, you have to respect it and take care of it.

I get asked often for e85 tunes, when the entire metropolitan city of phoenix has like 2 million people and 5 pumps that even sell e85. Why the heck would you want an e85 only tune when the stations are so hard to find and so far apart? It's not realistic, unless you are buying drums of it and pumping it at home. This isn't the midwest where its all over the place. The moment they tell them selves "oh ill just put 91 in it this one time and it'll make it" might be a costly decision for them to make.

And as for the LSJ, there have been so many lost to a faulty IC pump. I wish that car gave some sort of warning that the pump failed, or that IAT2 was 180*+

And the question I have been getting asked over and over the past 2 weeks by LSJ owners is "Can you tune me for the 2.6" pulley, 80# injectors, e85, with a 75 wet shot of nitrous?" Where are they getting this combo from, and how long do they expect for the pieces of their engine to hold together with that combination? Seriously............ I've been telling them if they have that kind of cash they should put the difference toward an LNF cobalt or an entirely different car all together. Having the fastest LSJ Cobalt is about a decade past being a title worth holding anymore.

[PSYKOSTEVO]

Tim I looked over the file, and I don't see anything glaring at me as a fault. The fan speeds were set a little low below 205*. That may have been the root cause of the Cam sensor code. Usually that throws an error related to cam actuator performance voltage. Not sure if you've come across that issue in the past, but hopefully you will know what I mean. Let the engine get to that 205* then give the fans hell.

On the Pressure RPM Factor table, i never personally set that value at a 3.0. I usually just up to to between 2.55-2.75 in the upper RPM range. I think that EGT Torque Limit table could end up being your safety net if you want to rule out people turning their pistons into Jello Pudding while obviously beating the piss out it. (Those piston pictures were like watching "Red Asphalt - Piston Edition"). I know that you had it set to 100% because they were catless anyhow, and if you don't set the table at 100% it'll just make the car run poorly after exhaust gets hot.

Spark Looked Good and so did Power Enrichment.

I am assuming you calibrated the MAF table, so I won't speculate there. And Your Desired Airload table looked to be in line with a healthy tune.

I do not think this tune would have melted the engine the way the owner claims, unless he fell asleep with his foot on the accelerator in a stadium parking lot.

[gmtech16450yz]

I have to say it's a little surprising to me that so many guys are making a judgment on this engine failure based on the tune that was posted. The tune is what is "commanded". The LOGS are what was actually happening. If you believe you can assess an engine failure or the way a particular engine is running based only on the tune, then you would also have to believe that canned tunes work perfectly in every car. Just because the tune that was supposedly in this car looks "OK", it IN NO WAY means the actual engine was running "OK". ISN'T THAT THE WHOLE POINT OF "TUNING"???

When you tune a car, you start with some sort of base file. You then look at the logs to see what the engine needs more or less of in terms of fueling, ign timing, cam timing, boost, etc. From the very first log this engine showed signs of gross mismatches of all engine management parameters. At that point, the tuner should have backed up and tried get the engine under control. The first move in that direction would be to DRASTICALLY lower boost. This was not done. (The boost level was clearly too high for the amount of fuel the HPFP was able to deliver.) The next move would be to get tune settings closer to stock, or all the way back to stock. This was not done either. LNF's on stock tunes very, vary rarely burn pistons apart like this engine did, I don't care how it was driven. Another direction would have been to compare logs from the DDM tune that the owner said ran better to try to find out what was wrong with the Term 2 tunes. This was also not done. The car was driven further than it should have because the owner had no idea the level of danger was as high as it clearly was.

This is a learning opportunity guys. Look at the logs. They show just about everything you can do wrong to an LNF. Somebody said "Spark looked good and so did Power Enrichment". The logs showed NEGATIVE ign timing at WOT and PE numbers ABOVE 1.06 LAMBDA at WOT. Holy crap what's good about that?

edit- One of the reasons I can tell nobody has really looked at the logs is nobody has mentioned the boost level he was at. Can anyone tell me what the max boost level this engine was seeing in any of these logs?

[hhrfreek]

I questioned that and it is the first thing I was looking for, but I get a little timid asking questions or giving advice with all the big dogs in one room. The boost is not being logged properly, but I noticed the sensor voltage is maxed...which means 300kpa...over 30psi. I don't get how you can run out of fuel pressure as bad as the logs show(under 800psi). I have not had a rail pressure drop even close to that on e85 and 24psi. Never seen a hint of pressure loss on gas/24psi in my own logs. I don't know how that happens on gas...unless the boost was super high(as noted) or there was a mechanical issue.

[codename Bil Doe]

If you want any confirmation that the LNF is a hand grenade waiting to happen, go watch that season of Solstice GXP racing from whatever that show was called on the Speed Channel. On the last episode they had like 10 cars going hot laps at Laguna Seca or somewhere and most of the cars blew something or went into limp mode after literally a couple laps. I think only 2 of the cars actually completed the full number of laps for the final episode.

The LNF is a beautiful little engine for some short distance shenanigans, like a 1/4 drag strip, or parking lot autocross, but if you treat it like a freeway beast with repetitive 140mph freeway pulls or track laps, then kiss its butt goodbye.

That is just flat out untrue and not based on anything factual. Spreading misinformation doesn't help anyone, especially when it's not based on anything factual. Referencing a show from 8 years ago with no knowledge whatsoever of what was done to the cars or the tune is ignorant.

Even before people understood how to correctly tune these cars, they were very successful in road racing. The LNF dominated scca runoffs sweeping the podium in 2007, 2008, and almost 2009 iirc before receiving a turbo restrictor and weight penalties. Last year's Runoffs a Solstice GXP came from almost dead last after avoiding a turn 1 wreck to finish 6th. The Cobalt SS also dominated when it came out.

My GXP was built as a race car from new and has 3700 road race miles on the stock block. Except for the k04 being a consumable, it hasn't had a problem.

Several problems have easy fixes, like properly installing hose clamps to withstand high boost.

Coming on and posting unfactual information doesn't serve any useful purpose. Except for the porous coolant blocks, it's almost always the operator and the tuner.

Sounds like when my gf heard a noise but thought she could keep driving. It was just the pistons welding themselves to the block because she had been cruising her v8 at 5.5k rpm down the freeway for over an hour on low oil. She said those engines sucked, too.

Would you crank a nuclear reactor to 110%, not monitor the gauges and then say it sucked when it went Chernobyl on you?

[gmtech16450yz]

Thanks Bill, I was going to say something about all the false information in that post but didn't really want to start a war. Sorry Stevo, but I also don't agree with many of the things you said.

It's funny when people say how "fragile" the LNF is. In totally stock form, even without the GMPP kit, it puts out 65hp/cylinder. And GM guarantees it will last for 100k miles, which they almost always do. If you compare it as a 4 to an 8, that's the equivalent to a 515hp V8. If you compare it as a 2.0L to a 6.0L, that means the 6.0 would have to put out 780hp! Stock. 65hp/cylinder that lasts for ~100k miles is a pretty damn strong engine. The LE5 puts out 42hp/cylinder. An LS2 puts out 50hp/cylinder.

So then let's compare SAFELY modded LNF's. I have many LNF's driving around the country at around 400whp on stock turbos and stock engines. That's roughly 450-500 crank hp? Let's say it's only 450 crank hp. That's 112hp/cylinder of reliable power. Again, comparing a 4 to an 8, that would equate to a 900hp V8. Comparing a 2.0L to a 6.0L, you'd be at 1350hp for the 6.0L V8!!! So how about my daily driven LNF with the EFR? I was at ~150hp per cylinder and after several years of daily thrashing I finally bent the stock rods. 150hp/cylinder is a 1200hp V8. 150hp/cylinder is FAR from a fragile engine.

HHRfreek, don't ever be afraid to say anything on here, especially when you were right. That engine was running stock TMAP's. The boost went QUITE A BIT higher than the max readings of the stock sensors. So how many guys on here that tune ANY boosted engine run the boost significantly higher in their tunes than what can even be monitored? Hopefully none. This tuner had the boost WELL over what the sensors were capable of reading, so we can only guess at how high the max boost actually was. I'm gonna say it looks like it was over 30psi. For those that said the tune was "Fine" or "Conservative", does that sound ok to you? The boost was commanded to 100%. How high can a stock turbo go when maxed out? I know I had mine well over 30psi a few times. Can you imagine what the cylinder and exhaust temps were at those boost levels? You don't have to guess, the piston shows how high they were.

[hhrfreek]

This is a tune file I built for a Solstice. This is strikingly similar to what you put on my GXP 2 years ago. Do you remember?Stock K04 turbo, IC, Catless DP, stock airbox (possible drop in filter I am not 100% on that). 93 octane Pump gas. 3 logs ago the car threw a cam sensor code, misfires, on 3 cylinders and strangely a P0101 in there as well. On that log the car dropped rail pressure in spite of being no where near the stock HPFPs limit (0.89 PE lambda, 24.5psi max boost no big spike and stock turbo on 93 so yeah)So yeah what? These cars just don't drop fuel pressure on gas @ 24psi. They start to drop fuel pressure like that when you approach 30+ I warned him that the cam sensor code was bad news and he insisted that somehow my tune caused all those codes including the cam sensor code. I told him there was zero chance anything in the tune caused the cam sensor code.Did you warn him your tune would bust up his pistons? Well 4 days later the motor blows on him while doing a pull and now of course he is blaming me 100% for his motor blowing.Apparently not. I of course stand behind my work and I told him that he could show his tune to any competent LNF tuner and they would agree that there is nothing wrong with or dangerous about his tune file.Nothing, nothing at all. In fact it is pretty conservative overall because I knew he autocrossed the car so I left timing very low so constant wide open throttle would never cause knock.30psi is very conservative. Well, I am putting my money where my mouth is.Don't put it in your mouth. Give it back to Tim. Feel free to look at this tune and give me your opinions.Ok

Thanks,
Terminator

I almost forgot what the original post said.

This has been a long time coming and I need to throw a little more wood on a fire that might fizzle out in hopes that maybe I can help save some engines by making public my experience with David as well. For some reason I kept my mouth shut about this and I feel slightly guilty about it now after seeing the carnage.

Tim, I was in the same boat you were in, but I was able to find land before he sunk my ship and left me stranded like you. I hired Term to tune my GXP in 2013. I fired him after less than 2 months of tail chasing(just missed the 45 day Paypal dispute deadline). Term had a good reputation so I believed almost everything he said and even though I had lingering doubts I continued on. You know how many hours I spent going over my car trying to find issues that didn't exist because he insisted the problem wasn't the tune? Then the usual replace a bunch of sensor BS...we're talking about a car that had 8k miles on it. + side is I still have a couple hundred dollars of good backup sensors in a box if something really does go bad.

David you probably knew this was going to happen when I asked to see a log. I am dumfounded you didn't post a log with that tune in the first place and it was kind of weird how long it took to get logs posted and none from you... I asked several of your other customers that advertised your tune in their signatures on forums if I could see some logs to compare them to mine years ago. I was ignored. I just wanted to compare to see if other cars were being abused by your tunes or if my car was an anomaly in that it was impossible to tune. Tim, that tune that is posted is strikingly similar to what David had me put on my car so I know you were over boosting(I'm sure much higher by looking at the wastegate duty cycle in comparison). I had a little tuning background at the time(none in LNF) so I as able to catch on to what was going on. I added things to my config and created histograms while he was tuning my car. The 23-24psi tune MAX I asked for...30+ on several logs. I asked him to turn it down and he did not because he was only seeing 24psi?! <---He really answered that way. WTF...I don't even know if he monitored boost at that point. Clearly he doesn't. I am positive. I even had a proper sensor for him to monitor.

Haven't looked at this in a long time...this log makes me cringe and I have 8 more just like it. I am just happy David didn't have a chance to pull the pin on my hand grenade(Ha see what I did there). Posted is a log from his 4th iteration on my car. 4th! Here is a tuner who has seen thousands of logs that can't get the car under control(even a little) by the 4th iteration. 4th gear pull at 9:55 in the log. That KR you see is false knock too(he told me that). The boost you see is only 24(sarcasm). Note the fuel pressure dropping a bit @ ~29-30psi...Tim you're engine was seeing a good amount more boost than 30 for the rail pressure to drop like that. Note no stft correction. Note the timing advance. Similar no? This kind of crap has been going on for years! I have a $350 folder of lessons with garbage tunes, logs and emails on my computer.

[powermizer]

This has been one of the saddest threads I've read for more than one reason. In the same breath its been great, I've learned a lot, so its been good in that way. I am glad there is so many good people on here to help. i am still in the struggling stage of tuning and learning what I need to see in logs. I am glad that TBsteck has shared this. I have to say I know so little, but because of great info like this i have slowly been getting better. Thanks everyone!!!


Just trying to make a little positive out of this bad situation!

[omega_5]

Well, this looks like it turned in to a lynch mob. Kind of pitiful how this turned out.

I have to say it's a little surprising to me that so many guys are making a judgment on this engine failure based on the tune that was posted. The tune is what is "commanded". The LOGS are what was actually happening.

Well, we were asked to provide insight in to the tune. That's what was done. I have no way of verifying that the logs provided actually belong to the tune at hand. For all I know, the owner (who clearly has HPT) could have dicked with the tune after the fact. No saying he did, but not ruling out that he didn't.

This is a prime example of why I no longer remote tune. I load the tune, I log the car, I see / feel the effect.
What a cluster of a situation!

[T-Man]

After reviewing the provided logs, all I can say is WOW! That's some ridiculous shit right there... Especially looking at hhrfreak's log... Looks just as bad!?

I revised my previous post but left the original statement.

Sorry TBSteck.... Hope you get things sorted out soon!

[T-Man]

Well, this looks like it turned in to a lynch mob. Kind of pitiful how this turned out.



Well, we were asked to provide insight in to the tune. That's what was done. I have no way of verifying that the logs provided actually belong to the tune at hand. For all I know, the owner (who clearly has HPT) could have dicked with the tune after the fact. No saying he did, but not ruling out that he didn't.

This is a prime example of why I no longer remote tune. I load the tune, I log the car, I see / feel the effect.
What a cluster of a situation!

Sorry Tyler, I disagree. There is no lynch mob when it's two people sharing an extremely similar experience. Not only that but if you look at the logs both previous customers provided, they're eerily similar. I have no dog in this hunt but unfortunately, there's no denying how poor those logs look, which is a clear indication that things weren't monitored/handled properly. And this is being explained/made clear by a few with quite the understanding of this controller...

[gmtech16450yz]

This has been one of the saddest threads I've read for more than one reason. In the same breath its been great, I've learned a lot, so its been good in that way. I am glad there is so many good people on here to help. i am still in the struggling stage of tuning and learning what I need to see in logs. I am glad that TBsteck has shared this. I have to say I know so little, but because of great info like this i have slowly been getting better. Thanks everyone!!!


Just trying to make a little positive out of this bad situation!

Another very wise person on here. You are absolutely right, this thread is very sad. I seriously wanted to cry when I saw the pictures of the piston. But through sadness or bad situations the opportunity for learning and growing is just as strong. Actually stronger. They say it's easy to learn when you are passionate about the subject. I also believe when the stakes are high, or the situation is somewhat "intense", the information involved has so much more power. In tuning specifically, when you make a change that doesn't have much effect, it's easy to forget. If you make a change that makes the engine destroy itself, it's IMPOSSIBLE to forget! lol. You may end up making that same change that didn't do much many times over again, but you'll NEVER make that change that blew up an engine.

This is serious stuff, and I for one DO NOT take it lightly. I first met David online probably 5 years ago. I know he's been involved in the LNF community for a long time. I honestly don't know him well enough to have any opinions or feelings about him or his previous work at all. Regardless, I can look at situations like this totally impartially and objectively and the person(s) involved don't play a part in any of my judgements. Saying the things that I've personally said about him and this situation aren't exactly helpful to his reputation. I don't say those things without a TON of thought. The biggest reason I say these things? Actually the ONLY reason? TO HELP OTHERS. Information is power. If nobody ever hears about things like this, nobody learns. I often use analogies to make my points, and in situations like this I often use an extreme analogy that I believe parallels this very closely. If a woman is raped, and she DOESN'T tell anyone, and another victim is raped, who is at fault? Obviously the rapist primarily, but that woman that kept quiet also has to carry a significant part of the responsibility. Had she spoke up, there's a strong chance that rapist wouldn't have raped again. I know this is an extreme analogy, but like I said, I believe it is a parallel to situations like this.

So yes, I totally agree that this is a sad situation on many sides, but the opportunity for many to learn from it is strong. THAT is why I stuck my nose in. I've already said I'm so sorry David for saying what I said in my honest and impartial analysis of your tune and logs from this engine. But my being sorry doesn't mean it shouldn't have been said. It NEEDED to be said. I strongly believe that sharing information is almost always better than keeping quiet. That is what has made things like the internet and this forum so freakin powerful. One person's bad experience can keep hundreds of others from having the same bad experience. And having a member like Powermizer that can see the possibility for good out of a bad situation is what makes it all work. I am proud to be a part of a community like that.