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Thread: Need to Clear My Conscience About This.

  1. #1
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    Need to Clear My Conscience About This.

    This is a tune file I built for a Solstice. Stock K04 turbo, IC, Catless DP, stock airbox (possible drop in filter I am not 100% on that). 93 octane Pump gas. 3 logs ago the car threw a cam sensor code, misfires, on 3 cylinders and strangely a P0101 in there as well. On that log the car dropped rail pressure in spite of being no where near the stock HPFPs limit (0.89 PE lambda, 24.5psi max boost no big spike and stock turbo on 93 so yeah) I warned him that the cam sensor code was bad news and he insisted that somehow my tune caused all those codes including the cam sensor code. I told him there was zero chance anything in the tune caused the cam sensor code. Well 4 days later the motor blows on him while doing a pull and now of course he is blaming me 100% for his motor blowing. I of course stand behind my work and I told him that he could show his tune to any competent LNF tuner and they would agree that there is nothing wrong with or dangerous about his tune file. In fact it is pretty conservative overall because I knew he autocrossed the car so I left timing very low so constant wide open throttle would never cause knock. Well, I am putting my money where my mouth is. Feel free to look at this tune and give me your opinions.

    Thanks,
    Terminator
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner omega_5's Avatar
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    While I don't have HPT at work to look at the tune, I'll give my two cents.
    The business we're in is a hazy area of the automotive community. Most car guys understand the importance of a good tune, but have no clue what is involved.
    You're always going to get the guys that are trouble.

    Here are a few examples I've had to deal with;
    - A year after tuning an LSJ; "My car is misfiring cause of your tune". Actual cause; lack of maintenance. Needed new plugs and a MAF clean.
    - 8 months after tuning another LSJ; "My car blew cylinder 4 cause of your tune". Actual cause; abused the car with a busted IC pump.
    - 1 month after tuning an LNF; "I heard a loud pop from my engine bay. Is the tune bad?" Actual cause; blew an IC hose.
    - 6 months after tuning an L67; "I'm getting evap codes cause of your tune". Actual cause; evap system needed service.

    Unfortunately, due diligence in a safe tune can only get you so far. The people who don't understand the tuning process will try to blame the tune.

    I have taken a few precautions to protect myself in the last few years, though. First, I have a checklist that I go through before any work is done. A mechanically, structurally or diagnostically (unexpected DTCs) unfit car gets refused work. Second, I explain how the process works, and have them sign an agreement with the understanding I'm not responsible if the vehicle is neglected, not maintained, abused outside of design, or further modified outside of design.

    In the end, I've seen some of your previous work; you're an expert in the LNF field. Don't let this incident get to you.
    Tyler

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by omega_5 View Post
    While I don't have HPT at work to look at the tune, I'll give my two cents.
    The business we're in is a hazy area of the automotive community. Most car guys understand the importance of a good tune, but have no clue what is involved.
    You're always going to get the guys that are trouble.

    Here are a few examples I've had to deal with;
    - A year after tuning an LSJ; "My car is misfiring cause of your tune". Actual cause; lack of maintenance. Needed new plugs and a MAF clean.
    - 8 months after tuning another LSJ; "My car blew cylinder 4 cause of your tune". Actual cause; abused the car with a busted IC pump.
    - 1 month after tuning an LNF; "I heard a loud pop from my engine bay. Is the tune bad?" Actual cause; blew an IC hose.
    - 6 months after tuning an L67; "I'm getting evap codes cause of your tune". Actual cause; evap system needed service.

    Unfortunately, due diligence in a safe tune can only get you so far. The people who don't understand the tuning process will try to blame the tune.

    I have taken a few precautions to protect myself in the last few years, though. First, I have a checklist that I go through before any work is done. A mechanically, structurally or diagnostically (unexpected DTCs) unfit car gets refused work. Second, I explain how the process works, and have them sign an agreement with the understanding I'm not responsible if the vehicle is neglected, not maintained, abused outside of design, or further modified outside of design.

    In the end, I've seen some of your previous work; you're an expert in the LNF field. Don't let this incident get to you.
    Thank you.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on my tune file?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    Terminator2,
    I haven't looked at the tune nor do I plan on it. I agree with Omega, people don't understand any of it and they just blame. It happens. I tell all of my customers that they need to agree that there is inherent dangers in tuning and that they will not hold me accountable no matter what happens. That's not it verbatim but you get the idea. I also tell them that if they don't agree with that I will fully understand and we won't tune. If you honestly feel your tune didn't cause it then don't sweat it especially if you warned him. If you really want I will look it over but I usually try to stay away. Others around here enjoy it way more.
    Look away. I want people to see the tune.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    It'll have to be later today (I'm not with my laptop) but I will. What exactly do you want us to look at? This is going to be a hard one without seeing previous tunes so we could notate the changes you made based off of the logs you have. I highly doubt you gave him a tune that threw a cam sensor code, and if it wasn't keeping up with pressure he shouldn't have it WOT at all without figuring out what was mechanically wrong. Pressure doesn't just disappear on a 93 stock turbo tune. I think that is the best were going to do without trying to investigate all of his tunes and logs. One tune doesn't give enough info but what I stated above is truth without needing to look at a tune. Plus motors blow. Could be completely unrelated. Hell I had a motor with a porous block give out on the dyno. Poor kid just got his car back from warranty work almost a year later. They couldn't find a new motor and built one. Anyways it happens. It happens on stock tunes. It's a risk we all take. Some make it a long time, other blow up stock.
    Look that the whole tune but mostly DALs, MALT, WG desired duty cycle, main spark especially intake max exhaust max. PE lambda.

  6. #6
    I just look through the tune.

    Its extremely mild, mostly just a boost increase with a tiny bit less ignition timing and midrange cam power band instead of the factory efficiency band, and CAT low disabled.

    I'd say it an extremely safe tune, safer then the GMPP tune.

    Sounds like the damage was from user error not tuner.

    I just read the tune, NO write, on a friends 2010 Challenger RT and when he had service done at the dealer they said they couldn't make it go to emissions ready because the ECU was bad. They replaced it under warrenty but he claimed it was from something I did. I think the dealer just couldn't do the drive cycle right and wanted to get the warranty money from the ECU R&R.

    Tuning is black magic to everyone unless they do it themselves, so its easy to blame something you don't understand.

    Tell him to go play in traffic!

    --Christian

  7. #7
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    Terminator2 you have been doing this a long time and so many people have recommended you that I feel confident that you know what your doing. I know what I say really means nothing, But I to have been in the performance world for a long time, not tuning PCM's but building carburator turbo and blower engines. People spend money and think that no matter what their problem is yours. I do way less performance stuff than I used to because of this. I make more money and less stress just doing stock stuff. Its sad. Like Mike said stock engines can blow up. I once built a 509 big block Chev with Ferrea inconel valves on the exhaust, and for no reason I could find, half of the valve face broke off. Even the best parts we use can go bad. I say no warranty on any performance work. Just my $.02.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDNITE View Post
    I just look through the tune.

    Its extremely mild, mostly just a boost increase with a tiny bit less ignition timing and midrange cam power band instead of the factory efficiency band, and CAT low disabled.

    I'd say it an extremely safe tune, safer then the GMPP tune.

    Sounds like the damage was from user error not tuner.

    I just read the tune, NO write, on a friends 2010 Challenger RT and when he had service done at the dealer they said they couldn't make it go to emissions ready because the ECU was bad. They replaced it under warrenty but he claimed it was from something I did. I think the dealer just couldn't do the drive cycle right and wanted to get the warranty money from the ECU R&R.

    Tuning is black magic to everyone unless they do it themselves, so its easy to blame something you don't understand.

    Tell him to go play in traffic!

    --Christian
    Exactly I made it purposely mild because I knew he autocrossed the car so I knew it would spend lots of time at wide open throttle.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    cam changes aren't drastic enough to cause problems.

    tensioners have been known to fail....i bet he had mechanical issues underlying that surfaced when power got raised. happens all to often
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 04-30-2015 at 11:10 AM. Reason: some comment data was false, removed
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  10. #10
    Hi, this is Tim, the owner of the car Terminator is talking about.

    First I would like to thank Terminator to care enough to seek out others opinions. Obviously I would like to figure this out too.

    Some quick history of car:
    - 08 Solstice GXP - bone stock until these tunes in late December '14
    - Purchased new mainly to autocross and hillclimb but use it on the street as a daily driver. I say daily driver but not driven much as a daily driver.
    - It just turned over 36,000 miles, as you tell for a 7 year old car don't driven a lot on the street as a daily driver.
    - Purchased all upgrades from DDMWorks
    + Lighten Flywheel and clutch by DDMWorks
    + Solstice GXP Mach Exhaust
    + Kappa-2.0L High Flow Catless downpipe
    + Solstice/Sky 2.0L LNF Intercooler by DDMWorks
    + KW Coilover Variant 3
    + HP Tuners VCM Suite Pro Package
    - Dave from DDMWorks gave me a "temporary tune" so I could drive it after the upgrades were added.

    This car never had a miss nor did it ever throw a DTC code before this upgrades and tunes.

    Initially put in DDMWorks tune and had no misses at the 3000 +-500 RPM range.
    Every tune from Terminator from the 1st one would miss at the range and only at the range. His tunes pulled good (except for the misses) ... well until that "very bad day". If I would put in DDMWorks tune back in, no missing at all. It had other issues but since that wasn't my base I didn't worry about that. Terminator did give me one tune that only missed a couple times in that RPM range with about 7-10 pulls through that range which was an amazing improvement since before it would always miss a lot through that range at 70%+ throttle given.
    CDNITE you said it was "user error", what error could I have done? This car was only raced once on a very tight course with the payment cold and bald Hoosiers, so no real hard driving. And did a few pulls, mainly through that range with a few up close to redline but since I was on the street doing this, had to kill it when I was getting to the triple digit mark.

    And I do understand this stuff a little bit, had LS1Edit and tuned a LSI Camaro from scratch by myself, which ran pretty good but I really kept a close eye on the WB #'s. I would have done this car but I don't have the time right now to learn the LNF engine w turbo - quite a bit different from the LSI engine which is why I wanted a professional to do it.

    I'm going to get the engine taken a part so I can fix it. Any ideas on what I should look at or replace? Well, expect the pistons, I'm pretty sure there is a hole in one of them. The car was still drivable, I drove very slow home - about 5 miles, oh but the smoke.

    I have every tune I was given and every log I ever did, if you would like to help out Terminator and me figure this out I would GLADLY send them to you.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    TBSteck,
    The only reason I said we would need all the tunes and logs is to know if he was doing absolutely anything wrong. To be honest most people don't touch the CAM Tables because they are scared of them or they use something from someone else. The few that have made their own use the same thing for the most part. None of that would point to a tune causing a blown motor from what you saw. As for the fuel pressure, that was definitely a mechanical issue. I can't imagine it being tuned related on 93 stock turbo unless you tried to do something stupid crazy and I don't see that happening from anyone. As for the miss you soeaj of is it a miss or KR in the logs? If it's a misfire did you look into the things that cause a misfire? Just because one tune causes something that another doesn't doesn't necessarily mean it's the tune though it can mean that. I still haven't looked at the tune but from what I have read on here it seems like it was a mechanical issue to be honest. Just my opinion though.
    Those cam angle changes I have used on at least 200 cars including my own car. They are mild and help smooth the drivability more than anything. His previous tune done by Dave at DDM was even milder power wise than my tune it was not making much more power than stock most likely with that tune based on what I saw in the file.

  12. #12
    I am away from my laptop and can't look at the tune, but as for the cam position sensor I can speak to that.


    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...efore-teardown

  13. #13
    I hope it is a mechanical issue and if it is I will be the first to say it was and that Terminator's tune had nothing to do with it. The tear down starts next week ... we will see. I really appreciate everyone's input. I will keep everyone posted.

  14. #14
    Log?
    Solstice GXP
    6758/E47

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TBSteck View Post
    Hi, this is Tim, the owner of the car Terminator is talking about.


    CDNITE you said it was "user error", what error could I have done? This car was only raced once on a very tight course with the payment cold and bald Hoosiers, so no real hard driving. And did a few pulls, mainly through that range with a few up close to redline but since I was on the street doing this, had to kill it when I was getting to the triple digit mark.

    The stock motor was not designed to be raced... it is a street car. Racing "once" is hard driving!

    Any time you exceed factory power levels you are stressing the design beyond the threshold level that the manufacturer has spend millions of dollars determining.

    As soon as you felt ANY "missing" you should have stopped! Spoken with your tuner and inspected the motor for mechanical issues. A piece of coke from the back of the valves, dirt that made it by the filter, or a piece of metal casting or washer/screw could be in your cylinder. But more likely is that you have a broken ringland, this could be from over boosting, over reving, but from my experience its from over driving. I say this because I have 25k on my stock top and bottom end and have run 30psi on the stock K04 and now 38psi with my EFR with a 7400rpm redline since it was new. I am way above what everyone here and on every other forum says is safe or even possible, and I can do this because I constantly scope each cylinder and the intake manifold, inspect and test parts and sensors, and most importantly I drive it responsibly. I get the motor to full operating temperature before I drive it hard, I let it idle down to cool after, and I don't do back to back to back full hard pulls because I know the motor can't handle it. My ~500whp motor with a stock clutch that isnt fucked up is proof of that.

    Also lets define what a "blown" motor is! If its driveable in any fashion it not blown, you shouldnt drive it, but blown in my mind means block porting or fragmented cranks, rods, piston.

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    all of my motors but one were lost to blown off ring lands. These are fairly sensitive pistons stock. The other motor lost a turbo waste gate and we'll I could not count the pieces.
    Chances are high you spun a cam gear or blew ring lands off. It's very common.

  17. #17
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    That is an extremely mild cal, IMHO. I think the timing could have been a smidge lower BUT I'm more akin to working with 91 piss water, not 93. There are a lot of things I would do differently but in no way shape or form would I believe this cal to cause any issues. The worst thing you could have done, TBSteck is to continue romping on/driving the car when you were clearly warned of bad things to come with any kind of cam sensor codes popping up. Also, as CBD experienced, failure of mechanical components is a glaring possibility.

    Take this at face value as I didn't see any logs nor was I privy to inspecting the car mechanically.


    EDIT - After having reviewed provided logs, I revise my previous statement above. THAT SHIT IS RIDICULOUS!
    Last edited by T-Man; 04-27-2015 at 11:42 AM.
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  18. #18
    As another reference I currently road race my GXP in bone stock form per class rules except for a catless downpipe. Races are ~40min. I run a flatline 23psi. It ramps from 0-20 psi in .7-.9sec to put the power down without blowing the rear tires off when coming out of a turn. This car has been raced since it was bought with 3300 track miles.

    The only problems I've had are spun cam wheel reluctors and k04 shafts (k04's are a consumable racing).

    The ONLY thing that changes between any of my tunes is the peak timing based on octane- 91,100,105, or 110.

    I say this because it sounds from what people have said about the tune that my setup is more aggressive the issue was more likely mechanical and ignored. Just my opinion tho from presented information.

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codename Bil Doe View Post
    As another reference I currently road race my GXP in bone stock form per class rules except for a catless downpipe. Races are ~40min. I run a flatline 23psi. It ramps from 0-20 psi in .7-.9sec to put the power down without blowing the rear tires off when coming out of a turn. This car has been raced since it was bought with 3300 track miles.

    The only problems I've had are spun cam wheel reluctors and k04 shafts (k04's are a consumable racing).

    The ONLY thing that changes between any of my tunes is the peak timing based on octane- 91,100,105, or 110.

    I say this because it sounds from what people have said about the tune that my setup is more aggressive the issue was more likely mechanical and ignored. Just my opinion tho from presented information.
    hahaha this has to be the shortest yet best stated description of the ko4+ i have ever read.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  20. #20
    They should state that on the box.