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Thread: ls1 with E85 making poor power. Help!!

  1. #1
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    ls1 with E85 making poor power. Help!!

    Hi there,

    I have a 2002 Holden Commodore that I was tuning on E85 for the customer. The car is making very little HP considering what it was previously making on pump 98. The car is Tri Y headers, factory cats, twin 2.5" system with a single muffler, mafless OTR intake.

    I have some very aggressive ignition timing and the gains are not worth mentioning. Any ideas on what could be happening here?

    Thanks in advance,

    Cristian
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    I think the timing is way too high....

    Are you running out of fuel at the top? No logs make it tough to answer...

    What was the before and after runs?

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  3. #3
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    I agree the timing is way to high but I was getting desperate and made a huge change to see what result I got. The AFR at WOT is 12.9 from 2500 - 6500rpm.

    18 months ago the same car on pump 98 dyno'd at 240rwkw and with E85 we are only seeing 213rwkw.
    I will get it back on the dyno and get a log for you.

    Regards,

    Cristian

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Tunes View Post
    I agree the timing is way to high but I was getting desperate and made a huge change to see what result I got. The AFR at WOT is 12.9 from 2500 - 6500rpm.

    18 months ago the same car on pump 98 dyno'd at 240rwkw and with E85 we are only seeing 213rwkw.
    I will get it back on the dyno and get a log for you.

    Regards,

    Cristian
    Stoich AFR for E85 s/b 9.75 or so. Should etst and see how close you are but 9.8 s/b close enough.

    Remember spark hook test, there is a peak point and torque rolls off before and after that point. I would say you went well passed MBT.

    Was it the same dyno for both runs? Look forward to the dyno logs.

    Ed M
    Last edited by mowton; 03-11-2015 at 08:09 PM.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  5. #5
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    Yes both runs were done on my own mainline dyno.
    Here is a log file. Let me know your thoughts!

    Regards,

    Cristian
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #6
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    As expected, your LTFT are pegged at +25%....Due to the fact E85 requires 30% more fuel. Set the Stoich AFR to 9.8 and see if that brings the trims back inline. IPW is at 19ms+ again maxed as well....running out of fuel for sure. Check your fuel pressure at wot as well.....is it holding 58 psi?

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  7. #7
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    way past MBT, i see a max of 30-32 tops!
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  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    He's tuning a LS1, if the heads are stock I would start with 26 degrees, maybe 24 on e85. If you go above 28 stop, something is wrong.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Ultimate Tunes, there is another member on here with a very similar name, "Ultimate LSx Tuning" who is from Australia. Any relationship, same shop?
    Last edited by VodeAn; 03-12-2015 at 01:37 PM.

  10. #10
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    Try using the attached spread sheet for the spark tables, you'll still have a ton of work to do to dial it in.

    Attachment 49175

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodeAn View Post
    Ultimate Tunes, there is another member on here with a very similar name, "Ultimate LSx Tuning" who is from Australia. Any relationship, same shop?

    There is no relation with the Ultimate LSX tuning.

    also thanks for the spark table, I will give it a try this morning and see how it goes.

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Does anyone even care that the stoich AFR is set to 14.6 while the fuel being used is E85 and has an AFR of like 9.8 and his long term trims are pegged at +25 going into WOT/PE which is going to add a ton of fuel to his commanded, IPW are max'd at 19+ms etc. per the log he provided..........the fact you dont have any knock retard is amazing. Assume you went from the previous timing in steps before you got to what you ended up with....

    But try the timing table.......

    Sorry for the rant

    Ed M
    Last edited by mowton; 03-12-2015 at 07:09 PM.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  14. #14
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    Ummm , that car is not ready to be doing wide open pulls. You have to learn how to tune e85 first. Is there even a wideband being used? I don't see it in the log
    2001 Z06 : 856/830 : Built LQ9 403ci : D1SC 17psi : Self-built , self-tuned.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    Does anyone even care that the stoich AFR is set to 14.6 while the fuel being used is E85 and has an AFR of like 9.8 and his long term trims are pegged at +25 going into WOT/PE which is going to add a ton of fuel to his commanded, IPW are max'd at 19+ms etc. per the log he provided..........the fact you dont have any knock retard is amazing. Assume you went from the previous timing in steps before you got to what you ended up with....

    But try the timing table.......

    Sorry for the rant

    Ed M
    This guy knows what's up...[s]dude its obviously the timing[/s]

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Does anyone even care that the stoich AFR is set to 14.6 while the fuel being used is E85 and has an AFR of like 9.8 and his long term trims are pegged at +25 going into WOT/PE which is going to add a ton of fuel to his commanded, IPW are max'd at 19+ms etc. per the log he provided..........the fact you dont have any knock retard is amazing. Assume you went from the previous timing in steps before you got to what you ended up with....

    But try the timing table.......

    Sorry for the rant

    Ed M
    I 100% agree with you and have nothing further to add to in relation to the fueling issue. I chose to address the timing issue because nobody provided the same detail on the timing issues to the OP that you did with the fuel.
    djt81185, both timing and fueling is an issue here, both must be addressed.
    Last edited by VodeAn; 03-13-2015 at 11:59 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodeAn View Post
    I 100% agree with you and have nothing further to add to in relation to the fueling issue. I chose to address the timing issue because nobody provided the same detail on the timing issues to the OP that you did with the fuel.
    djt81185, both timing and fueling is an issue here, both must be addressed.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  18. #18
    Senior Tuner LSxpwrdZ's Avatar
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    I didn't look at the timing in the tune as I'm not on a comp with HPT on it... but I have to disagree with some of the timing statements... I tested this back to back on a stock compression iron LM7 5.3 with a FAST102 intake and a 226/234 cam. On pump gas MBT was right at 26* peak torque and 28* at redline. Swapped the 93oct out and filled with E85 (tested to E87). MBT at peak torque was 32* and 34.5* at redline. I made multiple pulls to verify this as well by pulling timing from that point and losing power/torque. Then added timing on up to 34* peak torque and 36.5* up top and lost power as well. So with that said it's all in the combo and not for every combo.

    With that said I just did a 12:1 LS7 last week on E85 and MBT on it was 21* peak torque up to 23.5* at redline.
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  19. #19
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    James is correct,MBT on any fuel, is relative to the cylinder pressure of each individual combo

  20. #20
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    No need to start arguing between yourselves.

    The timing I started with was from a 98oct ignition map and slowly increased it to the point it was at in the attached file. The LTFT was maxed out for idle and cruise loads, Ok I agree that I could have changed the stoich number to 9.8 so the trims were as low as possible.

    The AFR of 12.9 at WOT were measured from a techedge wideband meter on a mainline dyno. I have never had reason to doubt my wideband before I don't have reason to doubt it now. As for it not showing in the logs its because it was never inputted into the HP box.
    Last edited by Ultimate Tunes; 03-16-2015 at 07:50 PM.