HPtuners for BMW, Mercedes-Benz???

[Pabs1]

Is there any possibility that HPtuners will develop software to tune European performance cars?

I mean it makes sense if you analyze the people who buy those cars. There is a market for the aftermarket in European imports cars.

[dlc_racing]

This should be interested cause i see some E38 pcm's that Gm use in almost ANY suv and trucks in some 120i bmw's maybe its something of this in the future

[fullthrottle]

It seems there would be money in it. I don't know through. I always thought that opening up the Japanese import cars would be a good idea too!!

[Montecarlodrag]

The E38 ECMs GM uses is not the same E38 from BMW, they are a very different controller. The GM is Delco while the BMW is Bosch.
So I can bet we'll never see BMW tuning inside HPTuners

[veee8]

After purchasing a bmw and trying to find software to tune it with, and coming up with nothing, I can honestly say, if someone were to develop the software for them, they will sell literally tens of thousands of them. There is a pretty huge demand for a consumer based tuning suite.

[Justin9212]

I agree

[MikeOD]

There's BMW software out there...it's just not cheap or common.

[veee8]

There's BMW software out there...it's just not cheap or common.

I have recently seen the Cobb Pro tuner software.. $3K For N54/N55 platforms etc... what else is out there?

[MarkTucker]

You want to get ahold of ESS Tuning for BMW tuning. I am a dealer for ESS Tuning. One of the best tuning solutions for BMW.

[RayBan]

You want to get ahold of ESS Tuning for BMW tuning. I am a dealer for ESS Tuning. One of the best tuning solutions for BMW.

Is ESS able to flash the 6HP26 trans in the 3-series E9x diesel models? There's a huge thread at E90Post and also a lot of demand from all around the world for remapping those units.

Transmission remap - Let's do it ourselves http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1125073

[DWR]

Here's the first page of that thread.
More to come...

Mik325tds 05-09-2015 01:41 PM
Transmission remap - Let's do it ourselves

2 Attachment(s) http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...2&d=1431196360 and http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...0&d=1431195608
@[DWR](contact:256022) and I have been doing a lot of thinking about how to improve the shift behavior of our transmission without dropping a kilo of $ to an UK tuner.
We have developed a game plan that might work but will require a lot of time and effort, so I was wondering if we could make this an open source type of project. Here's the game plan and some background information:
Our tranny GA6HP26Z is build by ZF (Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen) and is used in many carlines across multiple OEMs. Attached is a detailed doc of how it works.
Reading the "User information field" job in EDIABAS, mine returns the following information:
apiJob("GS19D","aif_aktuell_lesen","","")

Satz : 0
OBJECT = gs19d
SAETZE = 1
JOBNAME = aif_aktuell_lesen
VARIANTE = GS19D
JOBSTATUS =
UBATTCURRENT = -1
UBATTHISTORY = -1
IGNITIONCURRENT = -1
IGNITIONHISTORY = -1
Satz : 1
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
BMW_VEHICLE_IDENTIFICATION_NR = xxxxxxx
BMW_PROGRAMMING_DATE = 20100712
BMW_ASSEMBLY_NR = 000007606273
BMW_CALIBRATION_DATASET_NR = 000007606274
BMW_EXHAUST_REGULATION_OR_TYPE_APPROVAL_NR = 000000000000
WERKSCODE_HAENDLERNUMMER = 011111
TESTER_SERIENNUMMER = 12345
KM_STAND_PROGRAMMIERUNG = 0.000000E+000
PROGRAMMSTAND = 0479S90T641Z
_TEL_ANTWORT = 71 Bytes

The interesting number here is the Calibration dataset number 7606274 which corresponds to a file that is found in the SP-Daten updates for ECU reflashs. The file is called A7606274.0da and is completely unencrypted and in ASCII. The file is also attached (Password is the username of our banned friend Jess).
Looking through it with a txt editor reveals many repeating patterns which most likely are maps (3d tables with parameters depending on two input values eg. speed, torque. Best tool to discover and view those maps is WINols.
[to be continued...]

Persian Whisperjet 05-09-2015 02:25 PM
Mik when you said you did the alphabet soup thing on your back using jackstands, in Detroit in the winter, I suspected you were operating at a high level than the rest of us. now i know you are.

Mik325tds 05-09-2015 02:30 PM
3 Attachment(s)
From what I've read in other threads, there is supposed to be an updated file around that slightly improves the shift behavior. Unfortunately, I haven't found that one yet. It is supposed to be in the SP-daten set of 2.48.1 - Istufe E89X-12-07-508. If someone finds it, please post it here.
The plan is to take some data of our current shift behavior, then flash the new calibration, take data, correllate the changes in behavior to the changes in the file and thus identify the maps in the calibration file and learn what they do. Then we'll be able to manipulate them ourselves, calculate a new checksum and flash it back into our tranny.
The tool to flash the tranny is WinKFP which is part of the BMW Toolset that Ediabas comes with. I'll post a howto when I've tried it.

Another idea is to just flash the calibration file of the European 335d for instance this one here:
;;K_Stand: 19.08.2008
;;K_File-Name: A7595729.0da
;
;;Fahrzeugidentifikation
;;K_F1 Datenstand fuer
;;K_F2 E90 M57D30TU2TOP
... and see what happens. @[stevers314](contact:208112) had made a few of those attempts but as far as I understand he has used complete sets of SW and calibration files. These sets are described in the file GKE195.DAT which WinKFP uses to determine which SW updates are available for the ECU to be reflashed. The one I found looks like this:
$ PS10INIT N00000000000000000000000015000000000000 R
$ VERSIONKFCONF: kfconf10.dat
;Zusbauvorschrift vom 19.11.2009 15:28
;SG-TYP: GKE195
;ZB-NR TYP-NR HW-NR IX SW-NR AM PIN S CS
7587867,0000000,7573100,A,7587868DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 C
7610590,0000000,7591972,A,7610591DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 H
7606273,0000000,7591972,A,7606274DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
7609646,0000000,7591972,A,7609647DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 P
7569996,0000000,7566895,A,7569997DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
7569994,0000000,7566895,A,7569995DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 7
7592089,0000000,7591972,A,7592090DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 O
7595728,0000000,7591972,A,7595729DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 B

First number is the assembly number, then Type, then hardware number, Index, Software number, ...
Ours is underlined.

But first things first. Here are a few traces of 1st to 3rd gear pulls with different throttle inputs. I used Test-O, a free tool of our Finish friend Pheno (donations appreciated), to capture:
STAT_ABTRIEBSDREHZAHL_WERT - Tranny output shaft RPM
STAT_FAHRPEDALWINKEL_WERT - Throttle angle
STAT_ISTGANG_WERT - current gear
STAT_MOTORDREHZAHL_WERT - Engine rpm
STAT_MOTORISTMOMENT_WERT - Engine torque
STAT_SA_WERT - ???
STAT_TURBINENDREHZAHL_WERT - Turbine rpm (torque converter)
STAT_WK_WERT - Lock up clutch

My complaint is easily visible in these plots: In first and second gear, the engine rpms shoot up to about 2000 rpm before the tranny starts accepting torque and it takes until the shift into 3rd gear before it looks up for this first time. The reason why it is calibrated like this seems obvious: Protect the tranny from the huge amounts of torque our engine is producing. That's also the reason why our engine output torque is originally limited to 500Nm in 1st and 2nd gear. But I don't want to floor it all the time, I want defined and controllable launch behavior without my engine revving up to 2000+ rpms all the time. So if we succeed in tuning this behavior it will come with a bit of responsibility of the driver in order not to damage the tranny.

Any suggestions or feedback is welcome.

TDIwyse 05-09-2015 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17883241)
@[DWR](contact:256022) and I have been doing a lot of thinking about how to improve the shift behavior of our transmission without dropping a kilo of $ to an UK tuner...
This is an outstanding example of what makes this a great online community. Thank you for your efforts and contributions.

temporaptor 05-09-2015 05:37 PM
the later built 335d's had the 6hp28. such as my 2011 335d m sport. I know the 6HP26Z and 6hp28 are similar yet different.(not sure what changed) I remember hearing about some failures of the 6HP26Z that the 6hp28 had fixed. Would this remapping apply to both?

Yozh 05-09-2015 08:06 PM
This is exciting. Thank you for pioneering this, hope we can all pitch in and come up with a solution. Also wonder how the 26 vs 28 difference will play out.

dixy2k 05-09-2015 10:17 PM
I don't understand a thing in this thread, but I like the idea.

AzureHaze 05-09-2015 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixy2k (Post 17884859)
I don't understand a thing in this thread, but I like the idea.
Same here. If OP wants a donation for this project, I'm in 100%. :thumsup:

DWR 05-09-2015 11:51 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Mik352tds and I are still sorting out the 6HP26/28 differences. The solenoids and their activations do seem different. However, at a high level, that is not going to matter. Just like in engine ECUs, certain maps have certain kinds of patterns. An EGR map, for instance, is not too hard to identify in any ECU just because of its characteristic shape. I am learning as fast as I can what 'shapes' are in a typical TCU calibration. Here's a teaser. This an easy to find map in the calibration file. The peak has a value of 4648. Hmm sounds like our WOT shift point doesn't it? Still trying to figure out the axis.

BMW info is hard to find. But if anyone has any insights into the FORD 6R60/6R80 transmission, that would help. They are ZF licensed replicates. Also, if anyone has any experience or know anyone with exerience with Powertrain Control Solutions software, that would also help. Apparently, they have recently buttoned up their website and I no long have access to their documention and software updates.

DWR 05-10-2015 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17883660)
This is an outstanding example of what makes this a great online community. Thank you for your efforts and contributions.
You see the first couple of posts - think how lucky I am to be able to colaborate with a guy like Mik325tds! Very honored :bow:

DWR 05-10-2015 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17885119)
Apparently, they have recently buttoned up their website and I no long have access to their documention and software updates.
Please disregard, the panic was unwarranted. Found their developer section.

torqueisking 05-10-2015 09:37 AM
Amazing thread! lot of popcorn and beer cued up for this one

I was thinking of electrically manipulating the clutch slip with a piggyback microcontroller but this is much less intrusive solution.

dixy2k 05-10-2015 12:02 PM
Will this development address the rough shift pattern between the 2nd and 3rd gear, permanently?

DWR 05-10-2015 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixy2k (Post 17886653)
Will this development address the rough shift pattern between the 2nd and 3rd gear, permanently?
Don't even know what "rough shift pattern" means, let alone how to address it, lol. But seriously, Mik352tds is interested in TTC lock up and I am interested in faster shifts. It may not be obvious, but those could be opposing views of the same control issue. For drag racing, it can make more sense to have the TTC unlocked to absorb hard shifts. For mileage, direct coupling with soft engagement is more desireable.

We are a long way from being able to address anything ... and we might fall flat on our faces. Just going to try our best.

Hoooper 05-10-2015 12:27 PM
Interestingly I have a file for the N57 which is indicated as the same hardware number as my m57 files (7591972). The file is A7609647.0da. There are several other files in my folder for the m57 which appear to be older software than the A7606274 that is currently running, such as A7595729.0da. Would an older flash not be just as useful in this attempt as a newer file.

DWR 05-10-2015 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureHaze (Post 17885022)
Same here. If OP wants a donation for this project, I'm in 100%. :thumsup:
Damn! :mad0260: Mik and I already agreed to do this for free! LOL

At this point, the only thing we need is the nerve to mess around with 2 perfectly good transmisions . Mik has agreed to make the first attempt at reflashing, since he is braver, smarter, and better looking than me (I hope I didn't leave anything out - oh yeah, and has the short straw). I will be following him into the quicksand shortly thereafter ...

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by temporaptor (Post 17883979)
the later built 335d's had the 6hp28. such as my 2011 335d m sport. I know the 6HP26Z and 6hp28 are similar yet different.(not sure what changed) I remember hearing about some failures of the 6HP26Z that the 6hp28 had fixed. Would this remapping apply to both?
That is a good point. As DWR already responded, we are still working that one out. Mine is a 2011 m-sport as well, the transmission is built on Jun/23/2010 and the cars B-day was shortly after (06/2010), so I should have the 6HP28 but I was pretty certain I had the 6HP26 when I looked it up for the transmission fluid kit.
The BMW part number read by Ediabas is 7591972, but Realoem doesn't find anything under that. It shows part number 24007590129 for my VIN which is a GA6HP26Z.
Very strange. More research is needed.

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17885134)
You see the first couple of posts - think how lucky I am to be able to colaborate with a guy like Mik325tds! Very honored :bow:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17883660)
This is an outstanding example of what makes this a great online community. Thank you for your efforts and contributions.
Thanks guys - comming from you that means a lot to me. I'm humbled.

[DWR]

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17885119)
Mik352tds and I are still sorting out the 6HP26/28 differences. The solenoids and their activations do seem different. However, at a high level, that is not going to matter. Just like in engine ECUs, certain maps have certain kinds of patterns. An EGR map, for instance, is not too hard to identify in any ECU just because of its characteristic shape. I am learning as fast as I can what 'shapes' are in a typical TCU calibration. Here's a teaser. This an easy to find map in the calibration file. The peak has a value of 4648. Hmm sounds like our WOT shift point doesn't it? Still trying to figure out the axis.
Wow, Derek you are great! I have yet to install WinOLS... . We'll be looking at these type of maps a lot over the next weeks and months. I was a bit surprised to find out that the transmission controller is actually build by Bosch! The fact that WinOLS doesn't show a checksum for this map is a good sign. It seems there's just one CRC at the end of the file then which we'll still have to figure out. We might need to purchase the CRC builder for WinOLS. But we'll deal with that later.

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixy2k (Post 17886653)
Will this development address the rough shift pattern between the 2nd and 3rd gear, permanently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17886761)
Don't even know what "rough shift pattern" means, let alone how to address it, lol. But seriously, Mik352tds is interested in TTC lock up and I am interested in faster shifts. It may not be obvious, but those could be opposing views of the same control issue. For drag racing, it can make more sense to have the TTC unlocked to absorb hard shifts. For mileage, direct coupling with soft engagement is more desireable.

We are a long way from being able to address anything ... and we might fall flat on our faces. Just going to try our best.
+1 on that. Our desires for shift behavior are very different - I'm looking for fast shifts at low rpms and early lock ups so the car runs most efficient, others might look for optimal launch for drag racing (wonder who that might be ).
If we succeed in finding the relevant maps we (or you) can change the behavior for anything you like, but make no mistake - there is a looong and steep learning curve ahead for all of us. There is a good chance that we don't make it but that shouldn't keep us from trying.

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17886768)
Interestingly I have a file for the N57 which is indicated as the same hardware number as my m57 files (7591972). The file is A7609647.0da. There are several other files in my folder for the m57 which appear to be older software than the A7606274 that is currently running, such as A7595729.0da. Would an older flash not be just as useful in this attempt as a newer file.
You got it! They all belong to the same ECU family GKE195 and should all flash as long as the HW is the same. Based on the assembly instruction file we should be able to flash at least 5 different combinations:
$ PS10INIT N00000000000000000000000015000000000000 R
$ VERSIONKFCONF: kfconf10.dat
;Zusbauvorschrift vom 19.11.2009 15:28
;SG-TYP: GKE195
;ZB-NR TYP-NR HW-NR IX SW-NR AM PIN S CS
7587867,0000000,7573100,A,7587868DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 C
7610590,0000000,7591972,A,7610591DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 H
7606273,0000000,7591972,A,7606274DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
7609646,0000000,7591972,A,7609647DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 P
7569996,0000000,7566895,A,7569997DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
7569994,0000000,7566895,A,7569995DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 7
7592089,0000000,7591972,A,7592090DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 O
7595728,0000000,7591972,A,7595729DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 B

Today, I successfully flashed the ZB 7595728 with cal 7595729 with WinKFP :happyanim:. There were a bunch of DTCs afterwards but cleared fine. However, the driving experience wasn't that much different. If it all, the shift points are now later (around 2400 rpms). I took some data today which I'll post soon but intend to let the cleared adaptions settle down a bit and then take more data.

[DWR]

Hoooper 05-10-2015 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17887605)
That is a good point. As DWR already responded, we are still working that one out. Mine is a 2011 m-sport as well, the transmission is built on Jun/23/2010 and the cars B-day was shortly after (06/2010), so I should have the 6HP28 but I was pretty certain I had the 6HP26 when I looked it up for the transmission fluid kit.
The BMW part number read by Ediabas is 7591972, but Realoem doesn't find anything under that. It shows part number 24007590129 for my VIN which is a GA6HP26Z.
Very strange. More research is needed.
FWIW my 2010 (09/09 build) shows the same HW number. I would guess that HW number refers to the tcu rather than the trans as a whole.

Hoooper 05-10-2015 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17887794)
You got it! They all belong to the same ECU family GKE195 and should all flash as long as the HW is the same. Based on the assembly instruction file we should be able to flash at least 5 different combinations:
$ PS10INIT N00000000000000000000000015000000000000 R
$ VERSIONKFCONF: kfconf10.dat
;Zusbauvorschrift vom 19.11.2009 15:28
;SG-TYP: GKE195
;ZB-NR TYP-NR HW-NR IX SW-NR AM PIN S CS
7587867,0000000,7573100,A,7587868DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 C
7610590,0000000,7591972,A,7610591DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 H
7606273,0000000,7591972,A,7606274DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
7609646,0000000,7591972,A,7609647DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 P
7569996,0000000,7566895,A,7569997DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
7569994,0000000,7566895,A,7569995DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 7
7592089,0000000,7591972,A,7592090DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 O
7595728,0000000,7591972,A,7595729DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 B

Today, I successfully flashed the ZB 7595728 with cal 7595729 with WinKFP :happyanim:. There were a bunch of DTCs afterwards but cleared fine. However, the driving experience wasn't that much different. If it all, the shift points are now later (around 2400 rpms). I took some data today which I'll post soon but intend to let the cleared adaptions settle down a bit and then take more data.
Interesting. When I flashed to the 7606274 software a couple months ago I noticed a definite difference in the tc lockup for gears 2 and 3, but nothing else seemed to be different. I have to wonder if the A7609647 file would work even though it's shown as an n57 file. Was the n57 ever available with a 6 speed? It doesn't seem possible for the hw version to be the same between 6 and 8 speed transmissions

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 05:16 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthDiesel190 (Post 17887848)
How does one perform the transmission adaptation reset? I've seen mentions of a manual method and I assume there is some sort of electronic/software method. How are you all doing it after transmission services or flashes?
In Ediabas, select SGBD GS19D and double click job "steuern_adaptionswerte_ruecksetzen".

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17887930)
Interesting. When I flashed to the 7606274 software a couple months ago I noticed a definite difference in the tc lockup for gears 2 and 3, but nothing else seemed to be different. I have to wonder if the A7609647 file would work even though it's shown as an n57 file. Was the n57 ever available with a 6 speed? It doesn't seem possible for the hw version to be the same between 6 and 8 speed transmissions
What SW/ZB did you have before? My original ZB is 7606274. Would you mind looking up and posting your UIF (user info field)? Mine looks like this now.
Entries of the user info field:

--------------------------------------
Entry 1:

Vehicle identification number: WBAPNxxxx
Date: 12.07.2010
Change index: DA
Software number: 7606274
Office number: 0000000
Assembly identification number: 7606273
Seral number: 12345
Program number: 0479S90T641Z
Kilometer: 0
Dealer number: 011111

--------------------------------------
Entry 2:

Vehicle identification number: WBAPN7xxxxx
Date: 10.05.2015
Change index: DA
Software number: 7595729
Office number: 0000000
Assembly identification number: 7595728
Seral number: 42324
Program number: 0479S90T641Z
Kilometer: 0
Dealer number: 012321

--------------------------------------
End of user info field

That is in fact interesting. What car was the N57 in?

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17887921)
FWIW my 2010 (09/09 build) shows the same HW number. I would guess that HW number refers to the tcu rather than the trans as a whole.
I guess you're right. I didn't notice that the BMW part number matches the HW number. That's definitely the Bosch EGS only.

Hoooper 05-10-2015 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17887958)
What SW/ZB did you have before? My original ZB is 7606274. Would you mind looking up and posting your UIF (user info field)? Mine looks like this now.
Entries of the user info field:

--------------------------------------
Entry 1:

Vehicle identification number: WBAPNxxxx
Date: 12.07.2010
Change index: DA
Software number: 7606274
Office number: 0000000
Assembly identification number: 7606273
Seral number: 12345
Program number: 0479S90T641Z
Kilometer: 0
Dealer number: 011111

--------------------------------------
Entry 2:

Vehicle identification number: WBAPN7xxxxx
Date: 10.05.2015
Change index: DA
Software number: 7595729
Office number: 0000000
Assembly identification number: 7595728
Seral number: 42324
Program number: 0479S90T641Z
Kilometer: 0
Dealer number: 012321

--------------------------------------
End of user info field

That is in fact interesting. What car was the N57 in?
Not sure why, but in EDIABAS my uif doesn't show jack. It's all words and no numbers. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but I can't imagine what, I'm running the gs19d program and then the job you posted earlier. I'm not near the car right now so I can't post the exact output.

In the US other than the f10 535d I'm not sure what the n57 came in. Probably the x5d starting in 2012. In Europe I think it's in the 330d and 335d in different variations after 2011.

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17888022)
Not sure why, but in EDIABAS my uif doesn't show jack. It's all words and no numbers. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but I can't imagine what, I'm running the gs19d program and then the job you posted earlier. I'm not near the car right now so I can't post the exact output.

In the US other than the f10 535d I'm not sure what the n57 came in. Probably the x5d starting in 2012. In Europe I think it's in the 330d and 335d in different variations after 2011.
I don't think we can read the UIF in Ediabas, just the AIF. I read the UIF with WinKFP after the flash under Special. Not sure if that can be read without flashing.

Mik325tds 05-10-2015 07:04 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Here is the first data comparison between the original SW and the 7595729 calibration. This shows how difficult it is to even get two similar runs with defined input. I think we need a hack that simulates a skinny pedal and can give exactly 30% throttle for 7 seconds or so.
I wonder how someone can state that the tranny seems to behave different in any way just using the butt dyno.

DWR 05-10-2015 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17887794)
Today, I successfully flashed the ZB 7595728 with cal 7595729 with WinKFP :happyanim:. There were a bunch of DTCs afterwards but cleared fine. However, the driving experience wasn't that much different. If it all, the shift points are now later (around 2400 rpms). I took some data today which I'll post soon but intend to let the cleared adaptions settle down a bit and then take more data.
Yes, yes, yes! :happyanim: First critical milestone achieved!

DWR 05-10-2015 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17888265)
Here is the first data comparison between the original SW and the 7595729 calibration. This shows how difficult it is to even get two similar runs with defined input. I think we need a hack that simulates a skinny pedal and can give exactly 30% throttle for 7 seconds or so.
I wonder how someone can state that the tranny seems to behave different in any way just using the butt dyno.
Mik, I think I can set 30% throttle with some external electronic intervention.
Have a trick or two up my sleeve to sync the data between two datalogs. And on another front, Pheno may have found a method to speed up the datalogs in TestO. I'll be testing that out tomorrow.

Many things are coming together quickly, wow.
Hooper, thanks for contributing. We can use all the help we can get

Yozh 05-11-2015 12:57 AM
This is awesome. Thanks for having the courage to even try it out.

Len_Beach 05-11-2015 01:40 AM
The N57 came in the 330d LCI. This showed quite a leap in performance and economy over the pre-LCI 330d with the M57.

Some info here;
http://www.bmwheaven.com/database/show.php?id=952

Realoem shows that my car also has the GA6HP26Z gearbox.

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help the cause

iaknown 05-11-2015 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17888384)
Mik, I think I can set 30% throttle with some external electronic intervention.
Have a trick or two up my sleeve to sync the data between two datalogs. And on another front, Pheno may have found a method to speed up the datalogs in TestO. I'll be testing that out tomorrow.

Many things are coming together quickly, wow.
Hooper, thanks for contributing. We can use all the help we can get
Interesting stuff. Was wondering if Pheno has the ability to write something to send the dde a command through Testo for throttle input. Would probably be highly dangerous ☺ but good for testing what you guys are after.

Hoooper 05-11-2015 10:02 AM
Im going to send the string off to a couple groups I know are pretty good with coding, hopefully they can give some thoughts on the code and how we should be looking at it. Im not doing anything myself as far as code editing goes, I think this is well beyond my beginners C++ knowledge :help:. It sounds like we have a couple guys pretty experienced with code in here but I figure the more eyes the better, hopefully we can get a little helpful feedback.

DWR 05-11-2015 10:35 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by temporaptor (Post 17883979)
the later built 335d's had the 6hp28. such as my 2011 335d m sport. I know the 6HP26Z and 6hp28 are similar yet different.(not sure what changed) I remember hearing about some failures of the 6HP26Z that the 6hp28 had fixed. Would this remapping apply to both?
Here is a document that I think explains the progression of these transmissions:

Hoooper 05-11-2015 12:52 PM
So Im looking in the GKE195 folder again and I noticed the file "7591972A" which happens to be the same number as the HW number indicated for my tcu. I opened up the file and this is the first few lines:

Quote:
;============================================
;Austausch-Datei Programm
;============================================
;
;;ZL_System: GS19.11.0
;;ZL_Projekt: FM
;;ZL_Referenz: 0479S90T641Z
;
;============================================
;Freigabe: BMW
;============================================
;
;;K_Stand: 22.04.2008
;;K_File-Name: 7591972A.0pa
;
;;Fahrzeugidentifikation
;;K_F1 Grundprogramm fuer GS19.11
;;K_F2 6HP26T?/32T?
Grundprogramm translates to basic program, so basic program for GS19.11. Any significance to this? The rest of the file after all the description lines is the same hex code nonsense that the other files have. The general consensus im finding is that all that hex code is basically just reference chart data which would be pretty tough to make use of without having a whole lot of data for comparison. If anyone could find the program that provides the structure for all this data it could be a lot more useful.

Mik325tds 05-12-2015 06:02 AM
I came close to calling one of the phone numbers in these files... I find it amazing that they do list them.
So the 7591972A.0pa holds the program (algorithms) for our transmission while the SW files hold the calibrations - very strange. Why not call it the way it is (SW = SW, Cal=Cal, HW = HW instead of HW=SW, SW=CAL)?
Driving the 7595728,0000000,7591972,A,7595729DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 B - combination didn't reveal anything new. Very little difference in shift behavior. DWR confirmed this morning that comparing the two files didn't show much changes within the potential 150 maps.
I guess I'm on the next combination. Any preferences?

Hoooper 05-12-2015 10:07 AM
Not sure which one to try next. Based on Len Beach's response above I wouldnt try the ones for the N57. Which daten pack are you getting the files from? The latest is V55 but I wonder if there was a previous version which included a file that has since been removed from the pack.

Hoooper 05-12-2015 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17896259)
I came close to calling one of the phone numbers in these files... I find it amazing that they do list them.
Funny you say that, I was looking at them yesterday and thinking what we should really be doing is hiring this Sergiy Pogrebnoy character to do a little side job for us :bellyroll

Hoooper 05-12-2015 12:56 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Just downloaded the most recent daten and it has a "new" file in it under the GKE195 folder and it says its for M57 Maybe worth a try, I did not have this file before this update, but its not even as new as the 7606274 so not sure what the deal is. Maybe what you should be doing is comparing it to a file you know is different like the file for the B3 or any file for the 335i (GKE215 I think?)

DWR 05-12-2015 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17897370)
Funny you say that, I was looking at them yesterday and thinking what we should really be doing is hiring this Sergiy Pogrebnoy character to do a little side job for us :bellyroll
Oh man, if we could get our hands on a calibration template to know what is what. Even in German would be great - right Mik? OK Hoooper, you're in charge of donations for the consultant, ha! I'm laughing now, but that could change...

Mik325tds 05-12-2015 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17898439)
Just downloaded the most recent daten and it has a "new" file in it under the GKE195 folder and it says its for M57 Maybe worth a try, I did not have this file before this update, but its not even as new as the 7606274 so not sure what the deal is. Maybe what you should be doing is comparing it to a file you know is different like the file for the B3 or any file for the 335i (GKE215 I think?)
Thanks Hooper for supporting the cause like that!
Would be glad to try it. Would you mind zipping the .ats, .dat, .his and .hwh files and posting or sending them to me?

[DWR]

Mik325tds 05-12-2015 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17898596)
Oh man, if we could get our hands on a calibration template to know what is what. Even in German would be great - right Mik? OK Hoooper, you're in charge of donations for the consultant, ha! I'm laughing now, but that could change...
Yes, that would be something. But who knows, maybe he is as crazy as us and doesn't mind sharing his knowledge?

Mik325tds 05-12-2015 07:59 PM
2 Attachment(s)
I just flashed the A7610591.0da file for the N57 against all odds .
First test drive really felt a difference. It seemed to shift earlier and quicker somehow.
Unfortunately, my butt-dyno tricked me - the data doesn't really support that:

At least I'm getting better on the steady foot. And I took some screenshots of the flashing process, so hang in there for a tutorial.

TDIwyse 05-12-2015 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17901160)
...
First test drive really felt a difference. It seemed to shift earlier and quicker somehow.
Unfortunately, my butt-dyno tricked me - the data doesn't really support that:
...
Really appreciate your use of data to test and evaluate these efforts. Thank you Sir.

DWR 05-12-2015 09:19 PM
Hey Mik,

Great work. Can you put some unique symbol on the curves for each cal? The graphs are starting to get busy. Thanks.

Wondering if we should be trying cals for a different engine so we can really measure some differences ... and see those differences in the cals.

DWR 05-12-2015 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17901135)
Yes, that would be something. But who knows, maybe he is as crazy as us and doesn't mind sharing his knowledge?
OK, well, you are the foreign language expert on this team. I'll pay for the call ...

DWR 05-12-2015 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17901160)
I just flashed the A7610591.0da file for the N57 against all odds .
First test drive really felt a difference. It seemed to shift earlier and quicker somehow.
Unfortunately, my butt-dyno tricked me - the data doesn't really support that:

At least I'm getting better on the steady foot. And I took some screenshots of the flashing process, so hang in there for a tutorial.
The 30% graph is the best for comparison. Very steady foot, now it just needs an offset calibration.

There's no hope for the butt-dyno. The original shifts are quicker, based on SA duration. Mik, the timescales are in sync, right? I see the speeds (trans out) seem to match pretty close.

We do not know for sure if the "load axis" on the cal maps are throttle, MAF, MAP or some other proxy for load. We are taking a guess at throttle, but on a turbocharged engine that's a bigger risk. Unless we get some additional info, I'm thinking we need to add those to the logs. To keep from extending the sampling period, we would need to take something out. It is pretty easy to see the gear changes from the turbine speeds, so the "gear" parameter could go. Similarly, throttle% and torque are highly correlated. At some point, torque is affected by gear changes, but not the other way around.

Hoooper 05-12-2015 10:37 PM
Lots of new transmissions are controlled highly based on calculated torque. That could be the load category. Shift time desired, pressures, etc based on torque and gear number. Shift points and torque converter lockup based on throttle, speed, and current gear. I can post some fairly simple tuning charts for 4l60e transmissions that might give insight if you think it would help.

davidjaen 05-13-2015 11:18 AM
I think that there is one BMW 335d alpina... Maybe somebody know something about it.

TDIwyse 05-13-2015 12:14 PM
Question.

Are these logs being done in D or M/S mode? Reason I'm asking is because from some older documentation it appears this, as well as how one was driving previously to the test, could have a large impact on the shift behavior... it also calls out at least 4 basic baseline "maps"...

From BMW Steptronic pdf found on Post # 9 on this thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=262516

The adaptive transmission control (component of electronic transmission control) adapts the shift
characteristics of the comfort program and sport program to the driver's wish and the driving situation. In both
programs, the adaptive transmission control changes from a basic map to a performance-orientated map, as
required:
? Comfort program in selector lever position "D"
The comfort program is based on 2 characteristic maps: The XE map (extreme economy) and the
E map (economy). The EGS control unit normally selects the economical XE map (= basic map). In
case of particular demands (e.g. load requirements), the system will change to the performanceorientated
E map. If the input signals change in favour of a more "gentle" driving style, the system will
change back to the more economical XE map.
? Sport program in selector lever position "M/S"
The sport program effects dynamic, sporty shift characteristics. In the sport program, there is the basic S
map (sport) and the performance-orientated XS map (extreme sport). If an extremely dynamic driving
style is called for, the system will change from the S map to the performance-orientated XS map.

DWR 05-13-2015 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17901995)
Lots of new transmissions are controlled highly based on calculated torque. That could be the load category. Shift time desired, pressures, etc based on torque and gear number. Shift points and torque converter lockup based on throttle, speed, and current gear. I can post some fairly simple tuning charts for 4l60e transmissions that might give insight if you think it would help.
Hoooper, that would be very helpful. Thank you.

DWR 05-13-2015 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17904636)
Question.

Are these logs being done in D or M/S mode? Reason I'm asking is because from some older documentation it appears this, as well as how one was driving previously to the test, could have a large impact on the shift behavior... it also calls out at least 4 basic baseline "maps"...

From BMW Steptronic pdf found on Post # 9 on this thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=262516

The adaptive transmission control (component of electronic transmission control) adapts the shift
characteristics of the comfort program and sport program to the driver's wish and the driving situation. In both
programs, the adaptive transmission control changes from a basic map to a performance-orientated map, as
required:
? Comfort program in selector lever position "D"
The comfort program is based on 2 characteristic maps: The XE map (extreme economy) and the
E map (economy). The EGS control unit normally selects the economical XE map (= basic map). In
case of particular demands (e.g. load requirements), the system will change to the performanceorientated
E map. If the input signals change in favour of a more "gentle" driving style, the system will
change back to the more economical XE map.
? Sport program in selector lever position "M/S"
The sport program effects dynamic, sporty shift characteristics. In the sport program, there is the basic S
map (sport) and the performance-orientated XS map (extreme sport). If an extremely dynamic driving
style is called for, the system will change from the S map to the performance-orientated XS map.
Thanks TDIwyse, great infomation. I believe the reason Mik is trying to fix the load on the transmission during the logs is to avoid the switching between map 'types'. In the calibration files, there are certainly enough maps to cover many senarios - it does not make it easier, as you can imagine. There are 2 forms of adaption, the one you describe and one that adjusts timing between the application and release of clutches. Luckily, the later isn't something we need to worry about ... yet anyway.

DWR 05-13-2015 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17901995)
Lots of new transmissions are controlled highly based on calculated torque. That could be the load category. Shift time desired, pressures, etc based on torque and gear number. Shift points and torque converter lockup based on throttle, speed, and current gear. I can post some fairly simple tuning charts for 4l60e transmissions that might give insight if you think it would help.
I believe shift time desired is going to be very hard to find, using this method, as I'm guessing it is not a 2 dimensional map. And yet, that has to be one of the most important parameters for many of us. We have our work cut out. Really hoping for a lucky break(s).

DWR 05-13-2015 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17904636)
Question. Are these logs being done in D or M/S mode?
Sorry, I did not answer the initial question. Mik is most interested in gaining mpg, so the tests are in D (Mik correct me if I'm in error)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17904636)
it also calls out at least 4 basic baseline "maps".
I think that is the part that is surprising me the most. Most of the differences between the cal files are outside of the maps. The majority of the maps do not change. There is a group of maps that seem to be the exception - now if we could just figure out what they control!

Works 05-13-2015 01:33 PM
If you guys happen to figure out how to get the DS (S/XS) shift and tc lock map to work with D's (E/XE) rev map the rest of the world would be eternally grateful. This combo would then give birth a new D mode with economical shift points with crisp shifts and early tc lock.

I would be so happy..

Hoooper 05-13-2015 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17904870)
I believe shift time desired is going to be very hard to find, using this method, as I'm guessing it is not a 2 dimensional map. And yet, that has to be one of the most important parameters for many of us. We have our work cut out. Really hoping for a lucky break(s).
I guess it depends on the format. I don't know much about code, especially hex code, but I would expect the presentation for desired shift time which is probably between 0.2 and 0.5s to be very different from all other values which the lowest maybe being something like 3 for the 2-1 shift mph minimum and the rest of that table being much higher.

DWR 05-13-2015 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17905309)
I guess it depends on the format. I don't know much about code, especially hex code, but I would expect the presentation for desired shift time which is probably between 0.2 and 0.5s to be very different from all other values which the lowest maybe being something like 3 for the 2-1 shift mph minimum and the rest of that table being much higher.
Yeah, BMW literature says 300ms. So a value around 300 is likely. Unfortunately, with 50,000 addresses, there are many places where that value exists and in 6 consecutive addresses or more. Yikes!

Hoooper 05-13-2015 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17904649)
Hoooper, that would be very helpful. Thank you.
Will do ASAP, they are on my tablet at home

Mik325tds 05-13-2015 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17906063)
Will do ASAP, they are on my tablet at home
Yes, please! That will be very helpful.

Mik325tds 05-13-2015 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17904636)
Question.

Are these logs being done in D or M/S mode?
DWR is correct, I did the logs in D and am pretty sure the car is in XE mode as I drive mostly for economy. Also, I reset the adaptions after the flash and drove on a level surface.

cptcrunch 05-13-2015 05:39 PM
Interesting data sets and logging. I'll be following your progress closely

mob17 05-13-2015 06:31 PM
Are you able to code the car/tranny to switch DTC on (one press) automatically when switching to DS mode?

Mik325tds 05-13-2015 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 (Post 17907087)
Are you able to code the car/tranny to switch DTC on (one press) automatically when switching to DS mode?
I'm not sure if that is a coding option. I'll look out for it when I go in next with NCSexpert. It turns out, flashing a new SW turns off the coding for the flappy pedals behind the wheel. Will need to correct that later. Don't need them for now.

[DWR]

Persian Whisperjet 05-13-2015 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17904942)
Mik is most interested in gaining mpg, so the tests are in D (Mik correct me if I'm in error)
Mik I just got 42.2 mpg on a tank mostly highway -- post-DPF but I have not even attended to the EGR yet. I'd say 5-10 percent improvement easily.

DWR 05-13-2015 09:05 PM
Maps

1 Attachment(s)
OK team, I'm putting this out for knowledgeable folks to gander and comment. Here's a map that is in every cal file. I have a theory what it does, but looking for confirmation. What do you say? Particularly interested in thoughts on the lookup axis. Thanks.

Hoooper 05-13-2015 09:43 PM
Torque on x axis (nm)? Km/h on y axis? Minimum lockup rpm lookup?

Mik325tds 05-14-2015 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17908045)
Torque on x axis (nm)? Km/h on y axis? Minimum lockup rpm lookup?
Wow. That would be something! So there would be one of those maps for every gear, right? This one must be one of the higher gears... But no, how can you do 200 even in 6 gear with 150 to 1160 rpm?

DWR 05-14-2015 06:44 PM
1 Attachment(s)
OK, so that is one of the interesting aspects. There is only one of those 12X12 maps and it is in every calibration file that I have looked at. Therefore, it is not likely to be gear dependent. BTW, Mik shared a cal from an E53 and it had approximately 1/2 the number of maps. But it still had that one.

I'm really starting to see patterns across the cals. Here's another common map structure, typically 32 of these in a cal.

Mik325tds 05-15-2015 05:57 AM
He's decoding the Matrix!!!

gtp900 05-15-2015 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds
He's decoding the Matrix!!!
He will have to change his name to Neo :character0293:

DWR 05-15-2015 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtp900 (Post 17915532)
He will have to change his name to Neo :character0293:
If we don't get a breakthru in a bit, you might be calling me ZERO, lol.

DWR 05-15-2015 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17915400)
He's decoding the Matrix!!!
Oh no, just giving you your lucky lottery numbers!

But ... I don't do fortunes!

DWR 05-16-2015 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17907873)
OK team, I'm putting this out for knowledgeable folks to gander and comment. Here's a map that is in every cal file. I have a theory what it does, but looking for confirmation. What do you say? Particularly interested in thoughts on the lookup axis. Thanks.
After looking at many calibrations, I've seen that this map does not change. That is regardless of the engine or vehicle it goes in. Must be something specific to the transmission. At any rate, it won't be something we will be 'tuning'. So, that's 1 down, another 50 or so to go.

Yozh 05-16-2015 04:24 PM
May be we need this tool for simulation?

http://www.qtronic.com/doc/VirtualTC...ic_ZF_2014.pdf
http://www.qtronic.com/en/silver.html

DWR 05-16-2015 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh (Post 17923095)
May be we need this tool for simulation?

http://www.qtronic.com/doc/VirtualTC...ic_ZF_2014.pdf
http://www.qtronic.com/en/silver.html
I'll take a look. Thanks.

Mik325tds 05-16-2015 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh (Post 17923095)
May be we need this tool for simulation?

http://www.qtronic.com/doc/VirtualTC...ic_ZF_2014.pdf
http://www.qtronic.com/en/silver.html
Thanks for the post. Nice paper. But rather then using silver for simulating our transmission, we should try to get our hands on the calibration tools mentioned in the paper: INCA (ETAS) and CANape (Vector).
The Vector tools are usually very expensive but I haven't heard of INCA yet. The interpretation of the numbers in the cal files is critical. I fear that they are normalized values that'll have to be translated to real word values using a multiplicator and offset.

Yozh 05-16-2015 06:39 PM
I've been reading a lot recently. I think the calibration file interpretation is much more complicated than what we allow it to be. For example, the latest tables that were posted. The column headings: 17, 26, 34, 42, 51, 67, 84, 101 are the bit numbers, as in a 101-bit data stream. Or so I think.

DWR 05-16-2015 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh (Post 17923573)
I've been reading a lot recently. I think the calibration file interpretation is much more complicated than what we allow it to be. For example, the latest tables that were posted. The column headings: 17, 26, 34, 42, 51, 67, 84, 101 are the bit numbers, as in a 101-bit data stream. Or so I think.
Sorry Yozh, I'm not following. Sounds like you are saying we have the wrong data format. The numbers are, after all, the result of 16 bit conversion. So they are the conversion of a conversion? Again, admit I am not understanding. Please clarify.

Yozh 05-16-2015 08:45 PM
I of course did not look at all of the details and may be completely out of my league here, but I thought that those headings are bit locators/references. #101 may refer to let's say TPS sensor or anything else. I'm probably wrong on the size of the data stream as any byte reference may refer to a different size for that byte reference. So, 101 may be in 2 byte size, etc. Hope I'm not confusing anything.

DWR 05-16-2015 10:22 PM
We all may be out of our league, on this one. If the calibration files are indeed as suggested, I am over my head. The truth is we do need a leg up. However, if we have to build the leg ourselves I'm not sure that helps. I am not in disagreement that a simulator would speed this up. It would allow us to do experiements that would be improper in the real transmission. But when the simulator cost more than a transmission ...

Mik325tds 05-17-2015 10:02 AM
We all are out of our league here, otherwise we'd exactly know what to do. :sigh:
But we are smart (and wyse) and capable of learning and that's why we are doing this.
If I understand Yozh correctly, you're are thinking that the numbers are not numbers but addresses (or services in the diagnostic world), right?
I'm pretty sure thats not the case because the maps have specific patterns that WinOLS is looking for, the numbers and axis values are a strict conversion from hex to decimal. It has the ability to apply factors and offsets in the maps (double click on the axis). For instance, let's say we are looking at the throttle signal. The value range is 0-100% and would easily fit in a byte (0-255 dec, 0x0-0xFF hex). But in order to gain precision, ZF might have choosen to use the full range of a byte and have 200 (or 0xC8) represent 100%. So the factor would be 0.5*EEprom value. Now the throttle resolution is 0.5% instead of 1%.

I'm wondering if pheno might know the conversion rules as it is very likely that Ediabas just spits out the raw values for signals as well.

Mik325tds 05-17-2015 10:27 AM
The other day I looked up how the EGS transmits its signals on the CAN bus. My thinking was that it most likely uses the same conversion rules there. So, for throttle it is actually using a 12bit value (0-4095 or 0x0-0xFFF). In order to get from the signal to real the factor of 0.025 has to be applied, meaning in the cal file we'd most likely find 0xFA0 as the maximum value for Throttle = 100%.

For RPM the factor is 0.25 and 16bit (2 byte) signal.

For Torque it is even more complicated. In order to get negative values (for coasting or engine brake) they have choosen a factor of 0.5 and a 12bit signal shifted by -1023.5. So 0x000 in the signal would represent -1023.5 Nm.
A maximum torque of 1023.5 Nm would convert to 4094 or 0xFFE.
Makes sense or confusing?

DWR 05-17-2015 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17925548)
I'm wondering if pheno might know the conversion rules as it is very likely that Ediabas just spits out the raw values for signals as well.
I think those would be the same conversion rules that are applied to OBDII PIDs. They can be seen in Tool32 and Testo. In addition, that information can be found on the web. However, if you are not sure what the parameter in question is, then blindly applying conversions can be disconcerting (been there, done that). Generally speaking, the list of potential inputs is 3 rpms, load/torque and 2 temperatures. There could be a great amount of 'aliasing'. Outputs are duty cycle, binary on/off and torque reduction (maybe I have forgotten something). I believe we will be most successful if we know the map shapes we are looking for, then matching variables will be easier (not easy, just easier).

DWR 05-17-2015 12:01 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Does anyone think the data in the image looks like maps? They do to me, but WinOLS does not recognize any of these. Is there a better tool?

Hoooper 05-17-2015 06:50 PM
So here are some charts that I have from another tune. I think these charts represent what some of those charts could be, or maybe just an idea of what kinds of variables might be used for the tables. When I tried to post this the first time my tablet froze up a bit and I panicked since screen captures and such are not the strength of tablets and just getting here took a while, so I'm going to post this now and hopefully add a couple more later. Having seen some of the data already posted here I suspect that this tuning program takes the data from these user friendly charts and converts it to the entirely unfriendly charts already posted.

http://s23.postimg.org/9rewbk2jv/Untitled.png

http://s7.postimg.org/4eg868bpn/Untitled.png

http://s17.postimg.org/t5pza1k4v/Untitled.png

http://s28.postimg.org/on9hgty4t/Untitled.png

[DWR]

DWR 05-17-2015 07:56 PM
Thanks Hooper. Looks like this was for a 4 speed with one-way clutches/sprags (not clutch to clutch)? Who's software is that?

iaknown 05-17-2015 09:50 PM
Just had an idea that may or may not be useful.....What if you were to compare maps from a stock 335i flash to the Alpina flash and see what is different? Eh? I realize the gas flash is different than ours but it may tell you where to start looking.

Hoooper 05-17-2015 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17927592)
Thanks Hooper. Looks like this was for a 4 speed with one-way clutches/sprags (not clutch to clutch)? Who's software is that?
Yes its for a 4 speed, not sure what one way clutches to sprags means. The software is hp tuners, lots of gm support with some Ford and dodge support as well.

DWR 05-18-2015 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17928398)
Yes its for a 4 speed, not sure what one way clutches to sprags means. The software is hp tuners, lots of gm support with some Ford and dodge support as well.
Older automatics avoided 'flare' between gears by utilizing one way clutches. Part of the weight saving in our trans is the elimination of those kinds of mechanisms.

Last year, HP supposedly had the ability to tune the ZF6HP26 TCU/TCM in Australian Fords. Do you still have the software? Can you upgrade to the lastest version and check it out?

Hoooper 05-18-2015 07:36 AM
Which ford models?

Hoooper 05-18-2015 03:20 PM
So, the Ford BF comes with a ZF 6 speed and makes up to 405 HP/398 lb ft. Probably a 6hp26 behind that. HP tuners does have support for that model, and in addition I can confirm they have support for the ZF TCM in that model. I need to update my software, but I can take a look at those tunes and see what they have done. For V8s that started at 398 lb ft and have been modified we can probably learn a bit about the limits for the trans in terms of shift pressures, shift times, etc. Looks like there is a good bit of info on this thread (you may have to sign in) http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...-in-2-25-Beta/

Hoooper 05-18-2015 03:35 PM
So, the tuning of this trans looks a lot more involved than I have seen before. A LOT.

These 75 tables take the place of about 4 tables for 4l60e tuning. Granted this is for a 4wd vehicle so there are several additional tables above what we would have. AND the tables here, while they are for a ZF, are only for a 4 speed :cry:

http://s11.postimg.org/npkoim1cz/Untitled.png

http://s30.postimg.org/4bx4n69o1/Untitled.png

DWR 05-18-2015 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17932367)
So, the tuning of this trans looks a lot more involved than I have seen before. A LOT.

These 75 tables take the place of about 4 tables for 4l60e tuning. Granted this is for a 4wd vehicle so there are several additional tables above what we would have. AND the tables here, while they are for a ZF, are only for a 4 speed :cry:
Yep, we can expect it will be more complex for several reasons, the fact that the trans sends commands to the ECU, the shifts are adaptive, clutch to clutch handoff, several modes off shifting...

BTW, the ZF 4 and 5 speeds work very different than the 6 and 8 speeds. So, if you can get a peek at a 6 speed, that would really be helpful. Tables like you are showing can give us a lot of information about the maps we would be looking for.

Really appreciate your help. Thank you.

Yozh 05-18-2015 08:27 PM
Here is a stupid question. If Mik is successful in flashing various files to the TCU, why can't we flash an Alpina D3 transmission tune to ours. Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Hoooper 05-18-2015 08:33 PM
I'm trying to get access to the 6 speed compatible program. The 6 speed has only been added in a beta version so far, so I have to get them to get me the beta in order to open up some tunes for the 6 speed. I assume they will let me download it but I guess I won't know for sure until I am confirmed.

Fwiw I think the 4l60 tables are just simplified to be more user friendly. The trans has adaptation values, torque management, power/tow/econ, etc. but there really is no point to get into all of the different individual force motor, etc maps as a user of you don't want to. The zf 6 speed only has another I think 2 solenoids in the valve body so controlling it really shouldn't be that different

Hoooper 05-18-2015 08:41 PM
Yozh does the alpina d3 have a 6hp26/28? And do you have the file?

stevers314 05-18-2015 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17934102)
Yozh does the alpina d3 have a 6hp26/28? And do you have the file?
Old D3 had the 6HP19, new ones have the 8 speed.

Yozh 05-18-2015 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevers314 (Post 17934114)
Old D3 had the 6HP19, new ones have the 8 speed.
I could see that it was a 6speed, but did not know which one. Guess based on N47 that figures.
335i guys have it so much easier with B3 flash.

We are hooped. Need to bribe someone at BMW....

TDIwyse 05-18-2015 09:34 PM
This probably won't help, but it's fascinating reading about the inner workings of the BMW Electronic Transmission Control and all the "stuff" involved in its workings.

http://www.e38.org/electran1.pdf

Edit... This appears to be less helpful and detailed than the pdf in the 1st post ... so never mind.

TDIwyse 05-18-2015 09:52 PM
From the pdf on page 28, which also shows a diagram of these two methods (I'd like the "Sport" mode to be more harsh and abrupt please :-) ):

There are two methods for controlling the torque converter clutch on BMW transmissions:
•
A4S310/270R, 4HP22/24 EH, A5S310Z
- These transmissions use an on/off
control method to lock and unlock the torque converter. The Torque Converter
Clutch is either completely engaged or disengaged. This method of engagement
provides an abrupt sensation when the TCC is locking and unlocking. This abrupt
sensation can be undesirable to some drivers.
•
A5S560Z, A5S440Z, A5S325Z, GA6HP26Z,A5S360/390R
-
These transmissions
use a gradual approach to TCC control. The TCC is gradually applied and released,
this method reduces the abrupt feel of the on/off type TCC. The TCC solenoid is
controlled by pulse width modulation. This allows fluid to be gradually introduced
and released to the TCC.
The TCC is spring loaded to the engaged position. Pressurized fluid releases the TCC,
when the pressurized fluid is released, the TCC is engaged. Depending on transmission
application, the TCC can be engaged in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear. The TCC must be disengaged
at low speeds to prevent stalling.

DWR 05-18-2015 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17934062)
Fwiw I think the 4l60 tables are just simplified to be more user friendly. The trans has adaptation values, torque management, power/tow/econ, etc. but there really is no point to get into all of the different individual force motor, etc maps as a user of you don't want to. The zf 6 speed only has another I think 2 solenoids in the valve body so controlling it really shouldn't be that different
I'll try to explain the difference between how the 4L60 shifts gears versus a 6HP28. The 4L60 shifts gears by changing one solenoid state per gear change. The 6HP28 shifts gears by changing two solenoid states per gear change. The 4L60 plays catch, the 6HP28 juggles. So, the adaption I was referring to was the adaption of sychronization of the solenoids - something the 4L60 doesn't do because it doesn't need to. That's why there are shift kits for 4L60s and not 6HP28s. The 6HP28 TCU just adapts around the modifications.

But you are right, if we had tuning software, the user interface would be simplified. It would be unlikely the output from such software would be a complete calibration. I suspect something more abbreviated is produced that only specifies limited changes in the full calibration. Still, I'll take whatever I can get.

Martin80k 05-19-2015 02:08 AM
well...this all looks just too complicated....just bribe some friend working at BMW to somehow get it for you. transmission is not cheap thing to play with and there is a reason, there are hours of testing put in place by either zf and bmw, but still, there is no interest from bmw even keep it going for long, as they don't even recommend the oil change...they are at the end evil thinking
i have changed oil by dripping method unaware that it should be flushed with machine, and on top, there is a function in DISv57 called OIL CHANGE, which I am trying to figure what for and thinking it might be there for changing gears during oil change or maybe relearning the oil viscosity after the actual change? another function there is reset adaptations......
saying this, I think anyone wishing smoothing up and upgrade their tranny should start there....and then you can upgrade the software.....but first, change the oil and reset adaptations, me thinking.....
last thing: my transmission got damaged by actual oil change, not using the zf oil, not using flush machine, and not resetting up adaptations and using the oil change function in DIS....
good luck

TDIwyse 05-19-2015 06:12 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17934440)
From the pdf on page 28, which also shows a diagram of these two methods...
DWR, from your graphs on post #87 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=87) ... could those be PWM values for the TCC solenoid? Kinda looks similar to the PWM diagram on page 28.

Hoooper 05-19-2015 09:34 AM
So I got the BETA and...it didnt get any better. On the plus side, each of the available maps has a TCM location number shown in the window. If we are lucky, they are the same for our TCM. I posted some of those locations below to check on and a couple can also be seen in the screen shots at the bottom left corner.

Map------------------------Location
Shift Pattern 0 --------------- 41600
Shift Pattern 1 --------------- 41602
Shift Pattern 51 -------------- 41702
Second Ramp Shift Time 1->2 - 20508
Maximum Shift Time 1->2 ----- 41830
Nominal Slip Time 1->2 -------- 41566
Line Pressure Gear 1 -> ------- 41812

http://s2.postimg.org/vfvluf5ex/Untitled.png

http://s14.postimg.org/4cvrmrvfl/Untitled.png

http://s11.postimg.org/gw3k54ycj/Untitled.png

http://s24.postimg.org/hiz7fsin9/Untitled.png

This last one is my favorite. It shows what I had suspected for a long time but never really knew for sure if it was the case. The transmission can limit torque in every gear, and undoubtedly does so in the first 2 or 3 in stock form.

http://s29.postimg.org/xs0udghkn/Untitled.png

TDIwyse 05-19-2015 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17936351)
...
This last one is my favorite. It shows what I had suspected for a long time but never really knew for sure if it was the case. The transmission can limit torque in every gear, and undoubtedly does so in the first 2 or 3 in stock form...
Hooper, are you seeing things in there about limiting torque due to the trans fluid temp? I've been wondering about that and the practice of doing the 2nd gear brake boosted launches at the strip. I haven't measured the temp impact due to this, but I'm guessing it's pretty extreme, and I've recently been reading about other TCM's that de-fuel above certain threshold temps.

Hoooper 05-19-2015 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17936692)
Hooper, are you seeing things in there about limiting torque due to the trans fluid temp? I've been wondering about that and the practice of doing the 2nd gear brake boosted launches at the strip. I haven't measured the temp impact due to this, but I'm guessing it's pretty extreme, and I've recently been reading about other TCM's that de-fuel above certain threshold temps.
I am not seeing that in these maps, but these are probably not ALL of the modifiers in the TCM. Since this is a BETA program its likely they do not have it all figured out yet, there are still some maps that are not quite right.

That said, I think it would be worth logging. In my experience transmission fluid does not heat up very quickly when being pushed for a short term since there is such a large volume of fluid and fairly low flow rate. I think you would be surprised how low the fluid flow rate is through a transmission. Some specs I have seen call for 1L per 30 seconds at idle for a hose run from the cooler to a container. While idle obviously is not the max flow or pressure, it seems unlikely the flow is much more than 4x that, which would mean over a 1/4 mile pass you wouldnt even run the entire volume of fluid through once. With that WAG out of the way, it seems like it would be valuable to log that at some point. The hottest I have ever seen a transmission is when the TCC wasnt locking up at 75 in cruise control on the freeway, driving like an idiot for short term has given trans temps up to about 200, freeway cruise with TCC not working got to 230 after a couple minutes.

TDIwyse 05-19-2015 11:41 AM
I was wondering since it's in fluid coupling mode in 2nd. So there's some large power losses/heat generation due to churning and pressure while in that gear. I probably need to figure out how to log that...

From here (http://www.europeantransmissions.com.../6hp_trans.pdf) it appears there's two temp sensors: Trans Fluid Temp (TFT) and Substrate Temp Sensor (basically the temp of the TCM itself). There appears to be multiple changes to shift strategies and protection based on these two sensors.

[DWR]

charlie fairmont 05-19-2015 12:08 PM
I am in absolute awe of you folks. Phenomenal ingenuity and sleuthing skills. I couldn't possibly contribute but many thanks nonetheless.

Hoooper 05-19-2015 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17937155)
I was wondering since it's in fluid coupling mode in 2nd. So there's some large power losses/heat generation due to churning and pressure while in that gear. I probably need to figure out how to log that...

From here (http://www.europeantransmissions.com.../6hp_trans.pdf) it appears there's two temp sensors: Trans Fluid Temp (TFT) and Substrate Temp Sensor (basically the temp of the TCM itself). There appears to be multiple changes to shift strategies and protection based on these two sensors.
Yeah there are definitely modifiers in the maps based on fluid temp, there are a few in the shots I posted but they arent labeled that way. There are boost pressure maps, boost time maps, and pressure offset maps based on the transmission fluid temp feedback, but I dont see any torque management from fluid temp.

edit: To add to this, there may be an abuse mode triggered by fluid temp. Nothing like that is shown in the file at this point but that of course doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

mob17 05-19-2015 03:32 PM
Don't understand any of this but patiently waiting for a result!

Are we able to get the trans temp parameter monitoring via OBD port? Like through BMWhat or similar?

DWR 05-19-2015 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 (Post 17938805)
Don't understand any of this but patiently waiting for a result!

Are we able to get the trans temp parameter monitoring via OBD port? Like through BMWhat or similar?
Yes, the transmission fluid temperature can be monitored via the OBDII port. The parameter is Tra_tOil and can be logged in Testo.

Mik325tds 05-25-2015 04:59 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Sorry I have been offline for a while. It's funny how work gets in the way of the important things of life...
Anyway, I've been working on the descriptions on how to update the calibration of the EGS with WinKFP. It's quite involved. You'll need to learn how to work with NCSexpert and Ediabas first.
Let me know if you find anything that should be edited.

Mik325tds 05-25-2015 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17936351)
So I got the BETA and...it didnt get any better. On the plus side, each of the available maps has a TCM location number shown in the window. If we are lucky, they are the same for our TCM. I posted some of those locations below to check on and a couple can also be seen in the screen shots at the bottom left corner.

Map------------------------Location
Shift Pattern 0 --------------- 41600
Shift Pattern 1 --------------- 41602
Shift Pattern 51 -------------- 41702
Second Ramp Shift Time 1->2 - 20508
Maximum Shift Time 1->2 ----- 41830
Nominal Slip Time 1->2 -------- 41566
Line Pressure Gear 1 -> ------- 41812
Hooper, this is awesome! Thanks for getting this. Do you know if the tool calculates the checksums at the end of each line and end of file as well? That way we could start playing around with some things and testing/logging the effects.

Mik325tds 05-25-2015 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh (Post 17934037)
Here is a stupid question. If Mik is successful in flashing various files to the TCU, why can't we flash an Alpina D3 transmission tune to ours. Sorry if this has already been discussed.
Not stupid at all. I think this has been attempted already by stevers134. The transmission did not accept that program. As far as I know, we'll have to stay within the boundaries of the HWnumber 7591972.

Hoooper 05-26-2015 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17970612)
Hooper, this is awesome! Thanks for getting this. Do you know if the tool calculates the checksums at the end of each line and end of file as well? That way we could start playing around with some things and testing/logging the effects.
Well I know that it will give you checksum errors if it gets screwed up, so the answer must be yes, but none of the information is displayed to the user unless there is an error. Accessing and viewing that information is over my head. I sent you a few files to check out though so hopefully that is helpful.

DWR 05-26-2015 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17936351)
So I got the BETA and...it didnt get any better. On the plus side, each of the available maps has a TCM location number shown in the window. If we are lucky, they are the same for our TCM. I posted some of those locations below to check on and a couple can also be seen in the screen shots at the bottom left corner.

Map------------------------Location
Shift Pattern 0 --------------- 41600
Shift Pattern 1 --------------- 41602
Shift Pattern 51 -------------- 41702
Second Ramp Shift Time 1->2 - 20508
Maximum Shift Time 1->2 ----- 41830
Nominal Slip Time 1->2 -------- 41566
Line Pressure Gear 1 -> ------- 41812

http://s2.postimg.org/vfvluf5ex/Untitled.png

http://s14.postimg.org/4cvrmrvfl/Untitled.png

http://s11.postimg.org/gw3k54ycj/Untitled.png

http://s24.postimg.org/hiz7fsin9/Untitled.png

This last one is my favorite. It shows what I had suspected for a long time but never really knew for sure if it was the case. The transmission can limit torque in every gear, and undoubtedly does so in the first 2 or 3 in stock form.

http://s29.postimg.org/xs0udghkn/Untitled.png
Everytime I review this post, I see something interesting.
First, we now have insight into the map axis and expected scaling.
Second, we know the dimensions of these maps (and axis). There are many different size maps. This really helps narrow it down.
Third, the addresses called out in the HP tuners software are not matching up with the cal files, so hopefully it is just an offset. I'll need to carve out some time to do that search. But, would anyone be surprised if the Ford TCM does not match the BMW TCM?
Fourth, the shift times really are as slow as they seem.
Fifth, This transmission is stronger than we have been led to believe, with a torque threshold of 590 ft-lbs.


Thanks Hoooper.

Mik325tds 05-26-2015 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 17936351)
So I got the BETA and...it didnt get any better. On the plus side, each of the available maps has a TCM location number shown in the window. If we are lucky, they are the same for our TCM. I posted some of those locations below to check on and a couple can also be seen in the screen shots at the bottom left corner.

Map------------------------Location
Shift Pattern 0 --------------- 41600
Shift Pattern 1 --------------- 41602
Shift Pattern 51 -------------- 41702
Second Ramp Shift Time 1->2 - 20508
Maximum Shift Time 1->2 ----- 41830
Nominal Slip Time 1->2 -------- 41566
Line Pressure Gear 1 -> ------- 41812

http://s2.postimg.org/vfvluf5ex/Untitled.png
Ok. Let's start with the shift patterns. We should be able to locate them since there are 52 of them. 52!!!! :confused0068:
And why would they use output shaft speed (OSS) instead of ISS? It would be so much easier to understand.

The locations in HP tuner can't possibly be addresses: One map can't fit in 2 bytes.
...and why does WinOLS start with 0x50000 while the text files clearly start at 0x100000? Haven't found how to configure that yet - DWR?

DWR 05-26-2015 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17976884)
Ok. Let's start with the shift patterns. We should be able to locate them since there are 52 of them. 52!!!! :confused0068:
The locations in HP tuner can't possibly be addresses: One map can't fit in 2 bytes.
...and why does WinOLS start with 0x50000 while the text files clearly start at 0x100000? Haven't found how to configure that yet - DWR?
I believe the locations in HP tuner are the sequence locations for the various data blocks. For example, the shift pattern maps seem to have an up and down shift map, like so:
Pat Up Down
0 14600 14601
1 14602 14603
2 14604 14605
3 14606 14607
4 14608 14609
5 14610 14611
6 14612 14613
7 14614 14615

I'm finding WinOLS to be marginally helpful. For instance, the shift pattern maps. 52, ha, WinOLS can't find 1 map with those dimensions! My outlook remains that we will need to take information like Hooper just gave us to determine what the maps would look like either 2D or 3D in the cal file, in combination with the expected count of particular kinds of maps, to find the addresses. Because, some of the axis data will remain consistent, this is a method that WinOLS can facilitate because it will do byte sequence searches.

I'm not that concerned about address offsets. I've been through these inconsistencies in past investigations. Offsets were always changing with the software. Match the pattern you are looking for and document the address when you find it. Sometimes it was the exact same map or parameter, no difference, just in a slight different location ... Always open to better methods though.

Mik325tds 05-27-2015 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17977368)

I'm finding WinOLS to be marginally helpful. For instance, the shift pattern maps. 52, ha, WinOLS can't find 1 map with those dimensions! My outlook remains that we will need to take information like Hooper just gave us to determine what the maps would look like either 2D or 3D in the cal file, in combination with the expected count of particular kinds of maps, to find the addresses. Because, some of the axis data will remain consistent, this is a method that WinOLS can facilitate because it will do byte sequence searches.

I'm not that concerned about address offsets. I've been through these inconsistencies in past investigations. Offsets were always changing with the software. Match the pattern you are looking for and document the address when you find it. Sometimes it was the exact same map or parameter, no difference, just in a slight different location ... Always open to better methods though.
Agreed about the usefulness of WinOLS and address offsets. Maybe there's a better tool out there for transmission map identification? It looks like WinOLS is more trimmed to find engine tuning maps.

Mik325tds 05-27-2015 05:21 PM
more data

1 Attachment(s)
Here's some data of the 7609647 calibration. The 30% Throttle input pull doesn't reveal anything new. It agrees with the butt dyno: Not mutch different than original (7606273).

DWR 05-27-2015 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17970586)
Sorry I have been offline for a while. It's funny how work gets in the way of the important things of life...
Anyway, I've been working on the descriptions on how to update the calibration of the EGS with WinKFP. It's quite involved. You'll need to learn how to work with NCSexpert and Ediabas first.
Let me know if you find anything that should be edited.
Great stuff Mik, thanks.

Sounds like we can assume we will get errors with any flash. I know that will elevate my heart rate the first time I do this.

Mik325tds 05-27-2015 05:34 PM
Shift patterns

2 Attachment(s)
Here's something interesting though. I noticed in the 7610591 calibration that the tranny shifts very early from 5>6 but it also downshifts at slightly higher throttle inputs (30%) when in 6th gear and cruising around 50mph. So I started logging that behavior and now compared it to the 7609647 calibration: Data agrees with butt dyno: Very different shift pattern!
It's takes a little bit to see it, but the 7610591 cal I was able to shift between 6 to 5 to 6 to 5 very easily with throttle input between 15% and 30%. While the 7609647 took about 40% Throttle to downshift on the first try and on the second try it didn't even downshift at throttle input 50%. Both logs where done at very comparable OSS speeds of 1800rpm.
Looking at the shift pattern 46100, it would agree much more with the 7610591 cal than with the 7609647.
This is a huge step - once we can identify the 52 shift pattern maps, we now may be able to find which one it uses for D XE (extreme economy).

mob17 05-27-2015 05:42 PM
Wait, the tranny can handle 590 ft-lbs?

Kudos to the members doing this, i don't understand one bit. Are the US and Euro trannys software identical?

Mik325tds 05-27-2015 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 17983319)
Great stuff Mik, thanks.

Sounds like we can assume we will get errors with any flash. I know that will elevate my heart rate the first time I do this.
Haha, that's funny. I was going to put that in the manual: The first time you do this, expect a heart rate of 140+ while sitting completely still in the driver seat. It's awesome!

[DWR]

Mik325tds 05-29-2015 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 17995795)
How was your heart rate and blood pressure during this? Yikes...
Elevated
I think I'm slowly becoming a flash junkie. Need to find a group soon.

JP-76 06-01-2015 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 17995406)
Makes me think of a new mod... :drool:
If you're thinking about retrofitting electronic gearshiter, you'll need new mechatronics also. Gearshifting mechanism is totally different in newer gearbox. Just thinking out loud...

Mik325tds 06-01-2015 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP-76 (Post 18007953)
If you're thinking about retrofitting electronic gearshiter, you'll need new mechatronics also. Gearshifting mechanism is totally different in newer gearbox. Just thinking out loud...
How do you know it's totally different? The flash files say the HW number is identical.
E90:
;ZB-NR TYP-NR HW-NR IX SW-NR AM PIN S CS
7587867,0000000,7573100,A,7587868DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 C
7610590,0000000,7591972,A,7610591DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 H
7606273,0000000,7591972,A,7606274DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
...

E70:
7507225,0000000,7591972,A,7507226DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 L
7607058,0000000,7605219,A,7607059DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 7
...

JP-76 06-01-2015 11:19 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18011229)
How do you know it's totally different? The flash files say the HW number is identical.
E90:
;ZB-NR TYP-NR HW-NR IX SW-NR AM PIN S CS
7587867,0000000,7573100,A,7587868DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 C
7610590,0000000,7591972,A,7610591DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 H
7606273,0000000,7591972,A,7606274DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 J
...

E70:
7507225,0000000,7591972,A,7507226DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 L
7607058,0000000,7605219,A,7607059DA,0FFFFFFFFFD,00 0,1 7
...


Mik325tds 06-02-2015 05:39 PM
Ah. Thanks for the insight!
I remember seeing a DTC about a valve. Is that the park lock actuator or what are we looking at there? I still find it strange how they could have the same HW number for two different mechatronics. Maybe the electronic part is identical?

JP-76 06-02-2015 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18018603)
Ah. Thanks for the insight!
I remember seeing a DTC about a valve. Is that the park lock actuator or what are we looking at there? I still find it strange how they could have the same HW number for two different mechatronics. Maybe the electronic part is identical?
Yes, that is the park sylinder-rod on the picture. There might be possibility ...in theory anyway...to change the mechatronic-unit to newer one and then replace the gearlever to electronic one but I dont know what else it would require...

I believe the electronic control-unit is the same in both.

Xtremektm 06-08-2015 06:23 AM
E-version is for E65 that have electronic parking. All E90 have Regular version

rspring 06-10-2015 05:22 PM
Is there a performance TCU tune available for our cars? Noob with a noob question, but I did not find it using search.

DWR 06-10-2015 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspring (Post 18067498)
Is there a performance TCU tune available for our cars? Noob with a noob question, but I did not find it using search.
That's a good question. Some say yes. Some no. Depends upon your definition of performance. Look here:
http://www.jrtuning.co.uk/articles/b...p-tuning.shtml

DWR 06-10-2015 07:51 PM
Finding maps in the cal file

2 Attachment(s)
Mik325tds and I have been working on understanding the calibration file from our transmission. A while back I reported that we were able to see a hundred or so maps using WinOLS. Unfortunately, the size of the file indicated we must be missing something. Examine the file manually and started to see many more maps the software was not recognizing. So, I was left with nothing to do but create my own map finding tool.

Below a graphic display to explain the structure of 3D maps in the cal file. I imported the cal file hexadecimal dato into Excel, and converted it into decimal numbers. Then created some logic to check for map data that was consistent with the structure illustrated below.

Ended up finding a lot more maps. Hooray and darn, all at the same time ;-) Created a matrix to keep count of the various sizes of 'potential' maps. That is also below. Next the fun begins - see if we can match x and/or y axis values with ones similar to maps we are seeing in the HP Tuners maps for Australian Fords.

rspring 06-10-2015 08:06 PM
Thanks DWR. I have looked them up before, unfortunately they don't offer prices or any performance info on their site for 335d, so I'm less than fully comfortable.

Mik325tds 06-12-2015 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18068409)
Mik325tds and I have been working on understanding the calibration file from our transmission. A while back I reported that we were able to see a hundred or so maps using WinOLS. Unfortunately, the size of the file indicated we must be missing something. Examine the file manually and started to see many more maps the software was not recognizing. So, I was left with nothing to do but create my own map finding tool.

Below a graphic display to explain the structure of 3D maps in the cal file. I imported the cal file hexadecimal dato into Excel, and converted it into decimal numbers. Then created some logic to check for map data that was consistent with the structure illustrated below.

Ended up finding a lot more maps. Hooray and darn, all at the same time ;-) Created a matrix to keep count of the various sizes of 'potential' maps. That is also below. Next the fun begins - see if we can match x and/or y axis values with ones similar to maps we are seeing in the HP Tuners maps for Australian Fords.
Great work Derek!
So you think the 101 6x6 maps are our shift maps?

mob17 06-13-2015 02:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspring (Post 18068489)
Thanks DWR. I have looked them up before, unfortunately they don't offer prices or any performance info on their site for 335d, so I'm less than fully comfortable.
It's about ?400. Si-335d has done a review on it recently.

It is expensive though.

DWR 06-13-2015 05:29 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18081011)
Great work Derek!
So you think the 101 6x6 maps are our shift maps?
I did. But I don't now. Lol, turns out I didn't go high enough in the y axis dimension. Pretty sure I found at least a dozen of the shift maps with a 10 X 13 dimension. Below is a Map from a Australian Ford Falcon compared to a map from the cal file you flashed (A7610591). The Ford is a high reving V8, so the difference in the maps seems to make sense. OSS is the transmission output speed. I have not scaled the throttle % on the 335D data, just know 13 is the max on the map.

Now, if we can figure out when each map is used ...
Mik325tds get ready to do a lot of data logging ;-)

DWR 06-13-2015 05:49 PM
BTW, I'm still looking for the torque converter maps. They are amazingly elusive. Really have been concentrating on the torque converter, and found the shifts maps in the process. Should look similar to shift maps but with different x-axis dimensions. Lots of 6 X ? maps, but have not found a grouping that looks right. Also, found some smaller maps that look similar to torque management maps. Have not spent much time on those, just marked their locations.

I don't think we are that far from testing stuff out. Mik325tds, you think you can crack the checksum, etc. so we could flash a custom cal file? - man, if you told me 2 months ago I would be typing this pargraph, I would have shaken my head.

Mik325tds 06-14-2015 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18085502)
I don't think we are that far from testing stuff out. Mik325tds, you think you can crack the checksum, etc. so we could flash a custom cal file? - man, if you told me 2 months ago I would be typing this pargraph, I would have shaken my head.
DWR, you are the man! Phantastic work! :thumbsup:
Seems like all the research on the Ford forums was worthwhile. I had a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the notation above, but things are starting to make sense. Maybe it's worthwhile translating OSS into wheel speed in order to get a feel for the maps as you suggested before.
As far as logging and sorting the maps goes, I think we should start at simple coast loggs (0% throttle input from 60mph) and find the downshift points. They should be significantly different between DS and D.
Once we have split these two types of maps we could start copying a DS map into the D area and see when it starts affecting the loggs.

I'll start focussing on the checksums again....

Chief Orman 06-14-2015 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspring (Post 18067498)
Is there a performance TCU tune available for our cars? Noob with a noob question, but I did not find it using search.
That's a good question. Some say yes. Some no. Depends upon your definition of performance. Look here:
http://www.jrtuning.co.uk/articles/b...p-tuning.shtml
I have been in touch with these guys and they are very clear that it is a transmission remap and not just a mechanism to reset adaptations. I also believe they are claiming a reflash of the transmission through the OBD port using their tool (said tool apparently can't be used to reflash ECU due to some new security feature). I am sure this is old news too many.

DWR 06-14-2015 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18087415)
Maybe it's worthwhile translating OSS into wheel speed in order to get a feel for the maps as you suggested before.
Yes, I have an OSS to wheel speed to engine rpm spreadsheet. I believe can do that for both maps.

Quote:
As far as logging and sorting the maps goes, I think we should start at simple coast loggs (0% throttle input from 60mph) and find the downshift points. They should be significantly different between DS and D.
.
Great idea. I think it would be good to search for the map switching parameter, also. There appears to be more maps than there are modes.

TDIwyse 06-14-2015 07:38 PM
This is great stuff guys. Thanks for your continued efforts and posting the progress.

Curious ... any long term plans to create a way to swap a manual transmission into the D?

Mik325tds 06-15-2015 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 18089701)
Curious ... any long term plans to create a way to swap a manual transmission into the D?
I'd be all over trying to get a manual in our D's but from what I read somewhere is that BMW doesn't have a manual transmission that can take the torque. Not sure if that is true though.

Mik325tds 06-15-2015 06:10 AM
Here's is a little math challenge for those of you that like puzzles:
:1000F0000007FF60FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFA6
:10010000FFFFFFFFBBD81D600000000000000000E3
:1001100000000000000000000000000000000000DF
:1001200000000000000000000000000000000000CF
:1001300000000000000000000000000000000000BF
:1001400000000000000000000000000000000000AF

See the last byte in these lines? Those are the first checksums we'll have to get the correct formula for. So far I thought it was adding up all bytes in the line and then inverting (NOT operation) bitwise. But that will always end up 1 off.

Anyone else sees the solution?

Mik325tds 06-15-2015 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18091159)
Here's is a little math challenge for those of you that like puzzles:
:1000F0000007FF60FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFA6
:10010000FFFFFFFFBBD81D600000000000000000E3
:1001100000000000000000000000000000000000DF
:1001200000000000000000000000000000000000CF
:1001300000000000000000000000000000000000BF
:1001400000000000000000000000000000000000AF

See the last byte in these lines? Those are the first checksums we'll have to get the correct formula for. So far I thought it was adding up all bytes in the line and then inverting (NOT operation) bitwise. But that will always end up 1 off.

Anyone else sees the solution?
Duh.
It's Checksum=NOT(sum(allbytes))+1
One down, now the difficult one.

[DWR]

DWR 06-15-2015 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 18089701)
This is great stuff guys. Thanks for your continued efforts and posting the progress.

Curious ... any long term plans to create a way to swap a manual transmission into the D?
This has been done in Europe. There is a blog site that explains much of the process (but I can't find it right now). As you might have guessed, the challenge is still in the software side of things. Mechanically, it is relatively easy. Unless, you insist on a BMW transmission.

Hoooper 06-15-2015 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18092725)
This has been done in Europe. There is a blog site that explains much of the process (but I can't find it right now). As you might have guessed, the challenge is still in the software side of things. Mechanically, it is relatively easy. Unless, you insist on a BMW transmission.
Hmmm a TR-6060 would be real nice, available with 6th gear ratios from 0.63:1 to 0.5:1, and is rated for an addition 153 ft lbs.

TDIwyse 06-15-2015 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 18093661)
Hmmm a TR-6060 would be real nice, available with 6th gear ratios from 0.63:1 to 0.5:1, and is rated for an addition 153 ft lbs.
I like that.

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/File/TREMEC_TR-6060.pdf

Hoooper 06-15-2015 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse (Post 18094036)
I like that.

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/File/TREMEC_TR-6060.pdf
It looks like they came out with some new versions too, up to 650 lb-ft :thumsup:

Mik325tds 06-15-2015 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 18093661)
Hmmm a TR-6060 would be real nice, available with 6th gear ratios from 0.63:1 to 0.5:1, and is rated for an addition 153 ft lbs.
I'd like that, too! Does it fit mechanically?
The gear ratios are vastly different though.
1 2 3 4 5 6
Tremec: 2.26 1.58 1.19 1.00 0.71 0.5
6hp28: 4.17 2.34 1.52 1.14 0.87 0.69

In 6th gear that would drop rpm from 2100 to 1521. While that would be perfect for mpg, maybe that's a little bit too low?
And what a long 1st gear - it would actually be usable!

Let's cut that that SW crap and get to good old mechanical work!
Just kidding...

Hoooper 06-15-2015 07:21 PM
Yeah there are a couple different ratio options but theyre all pretty different. You can get a 0.68 6th gear it looks like, but 1st and 2nd are wildly different. If this was a project car and not my daily I would seriously consider that. But, its definitely not in the 5 year plan. FWIW I dont think freeway cruise at 1300-1500 would be an issue in this car. Another daily of mine makes less than half the tq and cruises just fine at the same RPM the d currently does, dont have to downshift for anything but the steepest of hills.

iaknown 06-15-2015 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18092725)
This has been done in Europe. There is a blog site that explains much of the process (but I can't find it right now). As you might have guessed, the challenge is still in the software side of things. Mechanically, it is relatively easy. Unless, you insist on a BMW transmission.
Would like to see that site if you can dig it up DWR.

Man it'd be nice to get rid of the slushbox, have a 1st gear we can actually use, etc.....

DWR 06-15-2015 11:01 PM
Umm, I believe this thread is about tuning the auto trans ... :confused2

iaknown 06-16-2015 01:01 PM
Way to kill the enjoyment of fantasizing and put the thread back on track you killjoy

DWR 06-17-2015 06:53 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Per request by MIK325tds, had some time to convert a shift map into something more easily understood. Also selected a better example. See chart below.

DWR 06-17-2015 07:16 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Looking for a parameter that indicates shifting status, with the hope it would give a clue to map selection. Doing considerable logging with Testo, just driving under a variety of conditions, I monitored a mystery parameter called "SA". It looks like a logical 'switch'. It's value correlates to both static and transitional states in D and DS. Looks like there are a couple of states I never encountered during my drives, based on the 'blanks' in the patterns. Not sure what to do with this other than share it as something interesting ... maybe it will come in handy later?

Mik325tds 06-18-2015 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18108423)
Per request by MIK325tds, had some time to convert a shift map into something more easily understood. Also selected a better example. See chart below.
Thanks DWR. It makes it much easier to follow and envision now. By looking at the map for downshift 6>5 I can tell, that this is not the D XE map. At 50mph the downshift at 30% throttle needs to be around 50mph. And the upshift 5>6 is probably a bit lower so they are overlapping.

Hoooper 06-18-2015 08:00 AM
The upshift speed is always going to be higher than the downshift speed for a given throttle %, if it wasn't you would get locked in a perpetual downshift/upshift situation when you hit a cell between the two curves. It looks to me like the downshift at 30% is pretty close to 50mph.

3lli0t 06-18-2015 10:30 AM
Hi.

thank you very much for this thread and your work! I'm also very interessted in an transmission remap for the N57/M57. Concerning the checksum: Afaik NCS-Dummy can update the checksum on modified NFS(WinKfp)-Files!

DWR 06-18-2015 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 18110834)
The upshift speed is always going to be higher than the downshift speed for a given throttle %, if it wasn't you would get locked in a perpetual downshift/upshift situation when you hit a cell between the two curves. It looks to me like the downshift at 30% is pretty close to 50mph.
Hey Hoooper, just want to say thanks once again. Your help with the HP Tuners software was a pivotal step in this process.

Mik325tds 06-18-2015 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 18110834)
The upshift speed is always going to be higher than the downshift speed for a given throttle %, if it wasn't you would get locked in a perpetual downshift/upshift situation when you hit a cell between the two curves. It looks to me like the downshift at 30% is pretty close to 50mph.
That's exactly my complaint with this cal A7610591.0da. At 50 mph it is constantly shifting between 6 and 5 with minimal throttle input. So the two lines must be very close together.

Mik325tds 06-18-2015 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lli0t (Post 18111608)
Hi.

thank you very much for this thread and your work! I'm also very interessted in an transmission remap for the N57/M57. Concerning the checksum: Afaik NCS-Dummy can update the checksum on modified NFS(WinKfp)-Files!
That is an excellent hint 3lli0t! Thank you very much. I'll check it out. So far I wasn't very fond of NCS-Dummy and would rather use NCS-Expert. But that might change now .

Chief Orman 06-18-2015 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18112621)
That is an excellent hint 3lli0t! Thank you very much. I'll check it out. So far I wasn't very fond of NCS-Dummy and would rather use NCS-Expert. But that might change now .
At the risk of asking a stupid question, where is all this leading? I assume that by dissecting the software files the intent is to create our own transmission software flash. Correct? To the technologically sophisticated folks who have dedicated countless hours to the noble endeavor how far away are we from the end goal (assuming I have summed it up correctly)?

Hoooper 06-18-2015 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18112607)
That's exactly my complaint with this cal A7610591.0da. At 50 mph it is constantly shifting between 6 and 5 with minimal throttle input. So the two lines must be very close together.
I would love to see the low throttle upshift dropped by several MPH in that range. You can hit 6th at about 42 mph with manual shifting, I see no reason that in D you shouldnt get the same situation at throttle % from 0-15 or even 0-20. The 6>5 would have to be dropped to about 38 in that range in order to make it reasonable though. I sometimes wonder if part of the reason the shifts seem too late at low throttle is because the transmission would just be shifting too much at low speeds if you cram that many gears into just 40 MPH and lower, so they knowingly sacrificed some mileage to avoid the confused transmission experience that many people complained about with the 6 and 8 speed autos when they first came out

Mik325tds 06-18-2015 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Orman (Post 18113276)
At the risk of asking a stupid question, where is all this leading? I assume that by dissecting the software files the intent is to create our own transmission software flash. Correct? To the technologically sophisticated folks who have dedicated countless hours to the noble endeavor how far away are we from the end goal (assuming I have summed it up correctly)?
There are no stupid questions. You got it almost right Chief. The SW for this transmission comes in two parts. One is the software which includes the allgorithms on which valves have to close/open in order to achieve gears. That we are not intending to change. The second part is the so called calibration. That's a different file and can be flashed with the same base SW. The cal file contains a whole bunch of maps which for instance tell the SW when to shift from 2>3 based on throttle input and output shaft speed. That is something we are trying to change and are very close to trying out the first changes.
We are also trying to change the lock up behavior of the clutch especially in first and second gear in order to get rid of the slushy behavior. That is a little further out since we haven't found the maps yet and don't quite understand yet how they work.

Mik325tds 06-18-2015 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 18113309)
I would love to see the low throttle upshift dropped by several MPH in that range. You can hit 6th at about 42 mph with manual shifting, I see no reason that in D you shouldnt get the same situation at throttle % from 0-15 or even 0-20. The 6>5 would have to be dropped to about 38 in that range in order to make it reasonable though. I sometimes wonder if part of the reason the shifts seem too late at low throttle is because the transmission would just be shifting too much at low speeds if you cram that many gears into just 40 MPH and lower, so they knowingly sacrificed some mileage to avoid the confused transmission experience that many people complained about with the 6 and 8 speed autos when they first came out
I think you found the exact trade off. This shift map already looks very crammed. The D XE behavior is pretty much what you're asking for and that's exactly what I like about this cal. It tries to give you very early upshifts and you can "tell" it to shift by slightly lifting the throttle just like you would do for a manual. The difficulty is then to lock in the gear as you roll in the throttle again without the transmission shifting down again. That calls for wide spreads starting at 20% throttle input.
Have you tried the A7610591 yet?

Hoooper 06-18-2015 09:25 PM
I haven't, I was holding out for a better option. Do you think I should try it out? Not reason not to I guess.

[DWR]

wibbles 06-19-2015 01:50 AM
Will this flash be applicable for the 335i? I have a 12/2006 E90 that won't accept the Alpina B3 flash but I would like to change the characteristics if possible without spending ??? on a tuner flash if possible.

Mik325tds 06-19-2015 06:48 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lli0t (Post 18111608)
Hi.

thank you very much for this thread and your work! I'm also very interessted in an transmission remap for the N57/M57. Concerning the checksum: Afaik NCS-Dummy can update the checksum on modified NFS(WinKfp)-Files!
3lli0t - you're awesome!
It works!
I changed this line from
:1001300000000000000000000000000000000000BF
to
:10013000000000000000000FF000000000000000BF
Old checksum was
$CHECKSUMME 571E U

Used NCS dummy to read the file. It said that the checksum doesn't match and if I'd like to update it. YESSSS!!!
:10013000000000000000000FF000000000000000C0
$CHECKSUMME B1C8 X
How much more convenient can it be?

We are now ready to flash updated cal files to our EGS! :happyanim::happyanim:

Mik325tds 06-19-2015 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper (Post 18115360)
I haven't, I was holding out for a better option. Do you think I should try it out? Not reason not to I guess.
Yes, please. I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

Mik325tds 06-19-2015 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbles (Post 18116157)
Will this flash be applicable for the 335i? I have a 12/2006 E90 that won't accept the Alpina B3 flash but I would like to change the characteristics if possible without spending ??? on a tuner flash if possible.
Do you know which transmission and SW you have?

wibbles 06-19-2015 06:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18116702)
Do you know which transmission and SW you have?
Hi,

here are the details:

EGS: ZB7606259

VIN:WBAVB72090KM95483

When attempting to Flash with B3 ZB number:

Error 201:

Check hardware number

Wrong ECU hardware number: 7566894 (BSU not possible)

I don't know the transmission part number but I can find out.

TDIwyse 06-19-2015 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18116695)
...
We are now ready to flash updated cal files to our EGS! :happyanim::happyanim:
Exciting stuff guys. Just outstanding.

Mik325tds 06-19-2015 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbles (Post 18116711)
Hi,

here are the details:

EGS: ZB7606259

VIN:WBAVB72090KM95483

When attempting to Flash with B3 ZB number:

Error 201:

Check hardware number

Wrong ECU hardware number: 7566894 (BSU not possible)

I don't know the transmission part number but I can find out.
Sorry mate. Doesn't look like it is compatible. You got the GKE215 family while we are working on the GKE195 family. However, you may apply the same strategy of finding the maps and modifying them yourself.
You should try flashing some updated and older cal files first to see if you find some obvious differences. Your compatible ZBnumbers are:
7574812
7606261
7606257
7606255

DWR 06-19-2015 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18116695)
3lli0t - you're awesome!
It works!
I just made sure that 3lliOt has the highest ratio of rep points to posts on this forum!

Another milestone down :cool!:

Although, he will have some work to do to keep up with you, MIK325tds!

wibbles 06-19-2015 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds
Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbles (Post 18116711)
Hi,

here are the details:

EGS: ZB7606259

VIN:WBAVB72090KM95483

When attempting to Flash with B3 ZB number:

Error 201:

Check hardware number

Wrong ECU hardware number: 7566894 (BSU not possible)

I don't know the transmission part number but I can find out.
Sorry mate. Doesn't look like it is compatible. You got the GKE215 family while we are working on the GKE195 family. However, you may apply the same strategy of finding the maps and modifying them yourself.
You should try flashing some updated and older cal files first to see if you find some obvious differences. Your compatible ZBnumbers are:
7574812
7606261
7606257
7606255
Thanks for the reply.

Can I use any of those ZB numbers on my transmission and is the current number the latest version?

Thanks

mob17 06-19-2015 01:08 PM
Is there anything i can provide to determine whether UK trannys are the same as US ones?

DWR 06-19-2015 10:15 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18110525)
Thanks DWR. It makes it much easier to follow and envision now. By looking at the map for downshift 6>5 I can tell, that this is not the D XE map. At 50mph the downshift at 30% throttle needs to be around 50mph. And the upshift 5>6 is probably a bit lower so they are overlapping.
Mik325tds, there are 10 shift maps in the same section of the cal file. There may be others elsewhere, I just have not been able to confirm that. Out of the 10, 4 look promising. See image below. Please excuse the x-axis scale. The cal file data must be convertered to get the scaling and there is slight differences between maps - doing that for every map is a pain in the rump.

Going to get some logging going for the converter lockup versus gear & throttle pedal%. I think I found the maps but the numbers look strange. Also, the Fords seem to use multiple columns per gear within a map. If that holds true for our cal file the start and end of columns will be hard to identify. I have seen maps in the Fords where sometimes the converter is locked full time in an upper gear. That means zeros in the whole column. That makes it easy to find and determine map column height. It does not look like we are going to get that lucky.

3lli0t 06-20-2015 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18117104)
I just made sure that 3lliOt has the highest ratio of rep points to posts on this forum!

Another milestone down :cool!:

Although, he will have some work to do to keep up with you, MIK325tds!
That was not my intention . It's a pitty I've got the GKE211 in my e92, perhaps I'm able to understand the way of remapping and do it for the 211. Which tools are neccessary?

Mik325tds 06-20-2015 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18121029)
Mik325tds, there are 10 shift maps in the same section of the cal file. There may be others elsewhere, I just have not been able to confirm that. Out of the 10, 4 look promising. See image below. Please excuse the x-axis scale. The cal file data must be convertered to get the scaling and there is slight differences between maps - doing that for every map is a pain in the rump.
Yes they do look promising! Don't worry about the x axis. It's close enough to imagine a 0-100% throttle input. Or are you sure it goes to 11?
I'll try to confirm the shift points with some logs but unfortunately I'm back to 12 hour days at work. Not much energy left for fun stuff.

Can you post some of the lock up clutch tables? Why would they be different in size?

DWR 06-20-2015 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18122235)
Yes they do look promising! Don't worry about the x axis. It's close enough to imagine a 0-100% throttle input. Or are you sure it goes to 11?
Actually, yes I am relatively sure they go past 100%. First reason has to do with sensors, throttle position in this case, may go beyond the defined millivolt level of 100%. Second reason has to do with some Ford maps also showing over 100%. Strangely enough, this seems to be a more common practice with aftermarket tuners than OEMs.
Quote:
I'll try to confirm the shift points with some logs but unfortunately I'm back to 12 hour days at work. Not much energy left for fun stuff.
I can do the same.
Quote:
Can you post some of the lock up clutch tables? Why would they be different in size?
I can post the infield data. But without being sure of the column height, I'd just be guessing at the tables. I do not have any idea why they would be different, however, the inventory of probable maps says there are not enough maps with 13 y-axis cells to account for the shift maps and the TCC maps. The y-axis is the same in the Ford maps. So, we either need to find a method to discern additional 13 cell y-axis maps or look for them elsewhere. I am investigating both possibilities.

Mik325tds 06-20-2015 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lli0t (Post 18121668)
That was not my intention . It's a pitty I've got the GKE211 in my e92, perhaps I'm able to understand the way of remapping and do it for the 211. Which tools are neccessary?
So far only a text editor, excel, NCSdummy and the Toolset32 (Ediabas, WinKFP,...). Since you already found out which family you have, I assume you're familiar with reading the AIF through Ediabas and have the daten files?

Mik325tds 06-20-2015 01:52 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbles (Post 18117209)
Thanks for the reply.

Can I use any of those ZB numbers on my transmission and is the current number the latest version?

Thanks
Yes, you can use any of the numbers I posted to go with your transmission. They should flash with no problem. There is one newer file for you transmission:
7606261. They seem to be ordered in consecutive numbers.
Look at the attached file: Your HW number is 7566894. All lines that include that HW number are flashable with WinKFP in comfort mode.

Mik325tds 06-20-2015 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18121029)
Mik325tds, there are 10 shift maps in the same section of the cal file.
Can you please post the addresses of these 4 or even 10 maps?
I'd like to do a little test: Make the downshift lines absolutely flat (same values per downshift). That way, the tranny should lock in one gear once it has shifted into it unless you slow down. You could then roll in the fuel without the tranny downshifting.
Very little risk and easy to verify if we tampered with the right map.

DWR 06-20-2015 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18123406)
Can you please post the addresses of these 4 or even 10 maps?
I'm in the midst of upgrading my map finding tool and have it inoperable right now. But you and the forum will have it shortly after I do . In the meanwhile, this is what I can tell you. After the first block of zeros, use the data value "534C" as the starting point, row1 and column1. The infield data for the shift maps is at row 7839, column 6, starting with value "0122". The maps do not follow Bosch format (that's why I could not find them at first), but rather run infield data consecutively, 10 columns, row 1 to 13, 10 maps, in that sequence.

Quote:
I'd like to do a little test: Make the downshift lines absolutely flat (same values per downshift). That way, the tranny should lock in one gear once it has shifted into it unless you slow down. You could then roll in the fuel without the tranny downshifting. Very little risk and easy to verify if we tampered with the right map.
I'm assuming the purpose of your test is to verify maps. Because map switching is likely to be an integral part of the shifting strategies. The most efficent method is to modify the maps so that there are differences between them that is measurable through data logging. In such a senario, for a pairing of gear and throttle%, the OSS value would be unique to 1 map. So, I agree your technique would be effective and should be extended to ensure uniqueness between maps. The 4 maps I shared are the only ones out of the 10 that could be associated with D mode. The other 6 have flat OSS values with repect to throttle% in 1 or more gears. We have more than enough bandwidth in OSS to be able to make discernable changes 4 different maps. So that really simplifies things - unless there are other maps we haven't found yet. That could make me do this

Alternative experiment: Lower the full throttle shift point of second gear. Make it different for each map. Do the same for very low throttle (maybe raise the shift point). Do we get a different map, or the same map? One more hint is the "SA" parameter data I shared of few post ago. Note that those values denote upshift, downshifts and steady state by gear (and more). It makes filtering the datalogs to find shifts easier.

Because you are working 12 hour days and I am not, maybe I could give this tranny flashing a try. I may need a little coaching.

... I hope nobody reads that last paragraph out of context

3lli0t 06-21-2015 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds (Post 18123370)
So far only a text editor, excel, NCSdummy and the Toolset32 (Ediabas, WinKFP,...). Since you already found out which family you have, I assume you're familiar with reading the AIF through Ediabas and have the daten files?
Yes, I have the daten-files and know how to read the AIF. Btw I was wrong: I've got the 215, not the 211. For the 6-zylinder diesel there is only one mapping available in the data, so where to start? Thanks in advance!

Edit: There is also another question: A lot of people like to see the curent gear in D and DS (like alpina). Do you see a possibility to combine the "stock"-mapping with this feature like a kind of a mixture between alpina and stock?

DWR 06-21-2015 09:18 AM
I'd like to see that too. Sounds like a coding question. Any coding experts in the house?

3lli0t 06-21-2015 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR (Post 18126581)
I'd like to see that too. Sounds like a coding question. Any coding experts in the house?
Unhappily it's not a coding question . It must be in the Daten-file for the Alpina.

Mik325tds 06-21-2015 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lli0t (Post 18126639)
Unhappily it's not a coding question . It must be in the Daten-file for the Alpina.
Yes, that'll probably a single value in the cal file different from the standard cal file. Probably impossible to find unless it is in a field of same values.
What do you mean, with "only one mapping available in the data"?