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Thread: coyote/copperhead ecu speed density tuning

  1. #1
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    coyote/copperhead ecu speed density tuning

    Just getting started with tuning these computers and NA is easy of course. I plan on doing some supercharged vehicles soon though. I would assume these tables have to be adjusted when adding forced induction to these cars. They don't look like typical ve tables though. Where do the numbers come from? Is it similar to virtual ve on the gen4/5 gm computers?

    I haven't seen much discussion on these tables in other threads so I was hoping to get some good info on them.

  2. #2
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by memphiss13 View Post
    Just getting started with tuning these computers and NA is easy of course. I plan on doing some supercharged vehicles soon though. I would assume these tables have to be adjusted when adding forced induction to these cars. They don't look like typical ve tables though. Where do the numbers come from? Is it similar to virtual ve on the gen4/5 gm computers?

    I haven't seen much discussion on these tables in other threads so I was hoping to get some good info on them.
    It is a similar method to GMs, where for each mapped point, you have a slope, offset, and a quadratic term table based on RPM and zero aircharge. Most people are not changing the speed density section when going to forced induction. Some are using the Roush tunes as a base.
    Eric Brooks
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    Thanks Eric that clears it up. I was just looking at the roush tune earlier for this reason.

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    The speed density functions do parallel the virtual VE of the GM, though not quite as complicated from the perspective that the GM version is a higher order polynomial whereas the Ford version is, at this point in time, only quadratic. The Ford version has been evolving over the year starting with a simple array of airmass vs RPM, then to a linear solution and at present a quadratic solution. The difficulty in understanding the Ford version comes from its handling of the undesirable roots to the solution of the quadratic equation. When solving the quadratic, you have have solutions that involve a single root, multiple positive roots (i.e. two viable solutions to the same equation), and imaginary roots (i.e. square root of a negative number). The Ford logic has different if, then, else paths based on the solution set. Without following those paths, you'll get an inferred MAP (and hence predicted airmass) that is disjoint. Following the paths correctly seems to produce a good workable solution. Quadratic SD Map.PNG
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    As Eric has eluded, there are a number of operating surfaces. In the PowerPC applications its infinitely variable across (and determined by) the variable cam position for the 3V platforms. In the first evolution of the Copperhead, there are an infinite number of possibilities throughout the sixteen defined operating surfaces and with the newer Copperheads throughout 32 operating surfaces.
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  6. #6
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Excellent explanation Jeff, thank you for posting it.
    Eric Brooks
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchambers View Post
    The speed density functions do parallel the virtual VE of the GM, though not quite as complicated from the perspective that the GM version is a higher order polynomial whereas the Ford version is, at this point in time, only quadratic. The Ford version has been evolving over the year starting with a simple array of airmass vs RPM, then to a linear solution and at present a quadratic solution. The difficulty in understanding the Ford version comes from its handling of the undesirable roots to the solution of the quadratic equation. When solving the quadratic, you have have solutions that involve a single root, multiple positive roots (i.e. two viable solutions to the same equation), and imaginary roots (i.e. square root of a negative number). The Ford logic has different if, then, else paths based on the solution set. Without following those paths, you'll get an inferred MAP (and hence predicted airmass) that is disjoint. Following the paths correctly seems to produce a good workable solution. Quadratic SD Map.PNG
    Do you have a spreadsheet that can be shared for the quadratics?

    Thanks!

  8. #8
    so what is best for fi copperheads? how ford racing does it or the older ways of load tables? from what I can see the quadratics are going from 0-100 (example) in a even rising line but I don't get how that works w alllll the other speed density stuff. there isn't one person that can explain it in such a way someone that has not took a engineering class can understand or relate to. we need copperhead for dummies lmfao
    GOD HELP US ALL....

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaineoutlaw View Post
    we need copperhead for dummies
    LOL!! Amen!

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    amen

  11. #11
    So reading this thread, how is Speed density done when there is no MAP sensor on these cars stock? Is it based on the data supplied in other tables to supplement data in accordance to a MAP reading?

    Or do the Speed density tables must be adjusted when the car is boosted even tho there is no map sensor?

  12. #12
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaganader View Post
    So reading this thread, how is Speed density done when there is no MAP sensor on these cars stock? Is it based on the data supplied in other tables to supplement data in accordance to a MAP reading?

    Or do the Speed density tables must be adjusted when the car is boosted even tho there is no map sensor?
    The speed density tables combined together (each mapped point) form the inferred MAP. People get by boosting the cars without ever touching these tables, but to adjust them would help with transients and what not.
    Eric Brooks
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  13. #13
    Thanks for the quick reply Eric.

  14. #14
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    Theoretically, if the formula for speed density is already mapped NA, wouldn't the same formula hold true for forced induction though the factory intake manifold, as we are just adding pressure to a known system? I know it wouldn't be quite perfect but it would have to be close unless you swap to a positive displacement supercharger?
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