LNF false kr on warmup

[codename Bil Doe]

Never done it before, so I thought I'd do a log as I warmed the car up. The LNF has pre-programmed KR until the engine is warmed up. Watching the log, the ecu would show instantaneous 2.2* of KR which mirrored pedal position. No pedal, no kr. Touch the pedal, instant 2.2* of kr . This was from a stop and while cruising, all below 10% pedal. Just a heads up that it definitely uses kr as warm-up protection. This occurs until 179*. 180* is the threshold at which it immediately disables this protection. I had a feeling it was around there. Interesting to watch it suddenly disappear.

[MikeM173]

Bill I'm sure you've seen it but you have some control over Knock Retard (RPM vs ECT, I believe). I haven't looked at the table for a while so don't ask me questions without posting a pic of it haha.

[MikeM173]

Also Bill I lost your number when my phone broke if you wouldn't mind texting me so I have it.

[JimmyS]

I start logging before I even start the car and haven't seen the kr you mention except when I had 100% optimum torque in the idle and cruise area. IIRC, it did go away right at 180* like you said.

[MikeM173]

I've had all 3. No KR, False KR, and real KR. It is tune able but it depends on the set up on the approach you take. Unfortunately having a butter smooth idle has made it that much harder to avoid false KR like Bill is talking about. The more you tune for perfection the more the littlest things will effect it.

[codename Bil Doe]

Mike- I was wondering why I haven't heard from you in awhile. =)

Jimmy- my tuning technique (which can be found under the optimum tq thread) is to run a 100% OT table except at high rpm & low load areas. Those areas are lowered to control off-throttle boost spikes. Otherwise, there's no reason to request a percentage of torque avail.

[JimmyS]

I've read it Bill and tried that technique along with several others. I've had great success with your race cam tables but didn't realize any benefit of the 100% torque across the lower load ranges when I tried it. I did see the kr you mentioned and attributed it to the 100% OT but didn't see any performance gains (40 to 60, 80, 90, 100, 110mph) so I've adjusted the OT table down but still much higher than the stock setting. My driving style is probably 180* different from yours so where you probably use the 100% for track driving doesn't really suit or benefit my straight line acceleration.

Good to point out that those experimenting with the tables will see the kr like you mentioned. I know I did.

Thanks

[MikeM173]

I would have to go through my logs to verify how much KR I normally see with it 100 across the board. I will say it's not just a performance gain for 100% across the board. It'll affect other things that in turn affect drivability which will overall change performance. In the cars I've tuned that ask for differences in things like that they tend to be slower. Also keep in mind that drivability issues can come from component issues or things gunked up so when you tune for max those things will cause issues that people associate with the tuning and then they tune around it.

[codename Bil Doe]

Biggest changes by increasing the optimum torque to 100% down low will be in the idle and low mph range. You can't measure that in 60-100mph times.

Does it make a difference? Absolutely in many ways. Changing the optimum torque table requires the 400-1000 rpm, low load timing to be raised significantly (matching the rest of the low load columns rather than having that odd dip in the stock timing down low). Does this improve 60-80mph? Of course not. But, try leaving a light smoothly now without adjusting 1st gear torque down until 2500rpm. You've just proven to yourself right there that it works.

I'm not the first to raise OT. People have done it for years to the right most column. The reason you raise the rest of the table is to give yourself the ability to tune for full performance everywhere.

Do you start from a light at 60mph? Do you drag race only from 60-100? When you need to avoid a crazy driver or you're merging onto a road do you signal to them "hold on, I only tune for 60-100 performance so I can't punch it yet"?

Increasing the OT table to 100% everywhere allows you to have maximum performance at all rpm and loads. It doesn't matter if you drag race, road race, or just cruise. When you need the power, you want as much as you can get regardless of rpm & load. That's why you tune for everywhere.

Another added bonus is that it keeps tables like spark a lot smoother by eliminating big transitions which helps with false kr

[JimmyS]

Got it.

[mkriebs]

"Do you start from a light at 60mph? Do you drag race only from 60-100? When you need to avoid a crazy driver or you're merging onto a road do you signal to them "hold on, I only tune for 60-100 performance so I can't punch it yet"? "

El oh el. Without looking at my tune I want to say I don't have my OT tables all the way up.

[JimmyS]

Never had to tell that to the Vette's, Camaro's and Challenger's that I left several lengths behind from a dead stop well past 100.... While my OT tables are not at 100% at idle and cruise, they are between 75-90% with 90% being idle to 1500rpm and then blended down to 75% up to 2500rpm from 10% load to 60%. The reason I did this was to keep the cruise control working as the high OT and OS tables seemed to kill cruise control above 70mph.

Just posting my observations on the different tunes I've tried - not trying to bash anything or anyone. If someone posts information regarding tuning changes, I try it, log it and compare it to what I've tried in the past. I'm no professional but I have gone through at least 100 different tunes and 2 different tuners, learned a lot from members here on this board and will continue to learn and may someday be able to help others as well.

[codename Bil Doe]

Cool. Always multiple ways to tune. I was just explaining why I did what I did. There is always more power out there.

MikeM made a good discovery of lowering the OS in the cruise range to keep cruise control functional. OT is more of a how much of overall is avail. OS more urgency table for how quickly to get all you have avail.

20 minds are better than one. Never be afraid to have opinions or post what you have figured out and seen. Everyone working together will gain the most knowledge.

As for kappas, I don't think anyone has launched on one. The benefits of having zero hp till 3k rpm.

[JimmyS]

Well said!

[MikeM173]

The other issues arise in what people want on how you tune it as well and how the car responds. No one way of tuning because everyone likes different things so people view different things as better then other things. Jimmy what you are doing is best. Take in different things, try it, log it and see if it is better then what you had before. Keep in mind you might want to go back to some of your other findings before and retest them with other current changes you made and see how they react together. One table will affect others so you may need to go backwards to see if something else might work better. I highly recommend people tune themselves or tune live with the tuner. That way whoever is tuning can actually feel and see what the car is doing and understand the wants a little better. Don't get me wrong I've emailed tuned and had great results with my customers I just think it is safer, quicker, and you understand what the person wants better when it's done live.

[mkriebs]

I haven't seen any KR on cold starts except when I touch the throttle, but it goes away before 180*... I don't know when exactly it goes away, I have never chased that tangent, but I definitely noticed it.

[codename Bil Doe]

That's what I was saying. "KR" when you touch the throttle. Otherwise it's 0 when coasting or at a light.