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Thread: Ran The Russk K IDLE but results dont make sense

  1. #21
    Tuner POWERZONE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02pewterz28 View Post
    Ok I opened the tb up to .61 and it will now start up with ac and off, the problem with that is when I do this the warm dle becomes very unstable due to the iac going to 3-4 counts. Messing with timing only made it worse as I added more timing to the tune it would become more and more unstable. I couldnt even load all the timing you had in that zip.

    Starting to wonder if the TB maybe causng some issues. I know fast tb's have a very small iac hole and when cold there is not enoguh iac flow then when hot the iac must close all the way to compensate for the opened blade.
    Ok good. Now you know for sure that you need more air. I tried to look at your log and even with the cfg I could not see your trims. Now you just need to fine tune the car. Your VE tables looks a tad bit fat for a cam of that size and larger injectors. You will need to work on the VE table table especially in the areas of idle. Then do the same with the MAF.

    With the timing I posted, try adding 4 to the entire overspeed and underspeed table. Just to see what it will do.
    Last edited by POWERZONE; 10-05-2014 at 04:05 PM.
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  2. #22
    current tune Timing added.hpt scan 1 with powerzone timing.hpl scan 3.hpl

    Thanks for the help power zone, i tried that and the car didnt like it at all. idle flared on start up and then just died the 1st log is the one with this tune in it. the next logs are just the same tune i had in there but with all the fuel trims.

    Also when i went out to the car it was a lot cooler maybe just at 100 degrees this time and it wouldnt start with the a/c on. so it appears it would need the blade opened up even more. im strongly contemplating selling this tb and going to a NW 102 the alrger iac passage may really help and make this all a little easier what do you think
    Last edited by 02pewterz28; 10-05-2014 at 05:19 PM.

  3. #23
    I am thinking of drilling my IAC passage out to help. It's hard to get the IAC counts right and not choke the motor.

  4. #24
    exactly... what i think im finding is that the iac cannot open enough at cold temps to allow the motor to start. then after i opened the tb it got the airflow but now the issue is that at hot idle it has to close almost all the way 6-10 counts which has its own problems lol

    i have heard good things about the nw so if i switch i wont be doing the fast 102. I actually did drill this one out a bt but i'd like to sell it and get my money from it, cant do that if i hog out the iac lol

  5. #25
    so i just gave in and ordered an NW i'm going to see if it helps out with the cold start issues. The car now starts up fine but has a cruise control feeling at colder temps along with an unpredictable idels icne the counts now are around 5-10 hot....

    i appreciate the help guys so if you all look at the logs keep feeding me info. my other question was that will just the tb change effect wot performance in a negative way without a retune? I was thinking no since the intake tract in front of it is the same alone with the intake itself but i was just wondering

  6. #26
    Tuner POWERZONE's Avatar
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    I did not know you already modified the TB. I would suggest you not drill holes in the TB in the future. I rarely have to resort to modifying the TB in that manner, only in a handful of cases and these were pretty radical setups.

    I have seen some guys butcher TB's for IAC counts and this only brings on other issues sometimes. I think a lot of guys get lost in the sauce with IAC counts. IMO the counts are contigent on many different factors and the combination. I have tuned some stuff that has 70 to 100+ counts and they all start up with no issues cold or hot.

    I hope the NW's TB will work out better for you.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by POWERZONE View Post
    I did not know you already modified the TB. I would suggest you not drill holes in the TB in the future. I rarely have to resort to modifying the TB in that manner, only in a handful of cases and these were pretty radical setups.

    I have seen some guys butcher TB's for IAC counts and this only brings on other issues sometimes. I think a lot of guys get lost in the sauce with IAC counts. IMO the counts are contigent on many different factors and the combination. I have tuned some stuff that has 70 to 100+ counts and they all start up with no issues cold or hot.

    I hope the NW's TB will work out better for you.
    Thanks PZ. I did mod it a little but not much at all so I didnt think it would really matter it was just in the back of the iac to get a little more flow as I had heard of a lot of issues with the passage, the blade is unmodified. We'll see how the NW goes. Question though, will the increase in tb size throw off the tune at wot or will it more or less be the same?

    nothing else on the intake setup is changing everything in front and obviously behind on the intake side will be the same.

    When I get the the tb I'll post up and see i'm keeping the fast till i know the nw fixes it... what did you think of the idle logs up there?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02pewterz28 View Post
    Thanks PZ. I did mod it a little but not much at all so I didnt think it would really matter it was just in the back of the iac to get a little more flow as I had heard of a lot of issues with the passage, the blade is unmodified. We'll see how the NW goes. Question though, will the increase in tb size throw off the tune at wot or will it more or less be the same?

    nothing else on the intake setup is changing everything in front and obviously behind on the intake side will be the same.

    When I get the the tb I'll post up and see i'm keeping the fast till i know the nw fixes it... what did you think of the idle logs up there?
    I am pretty sure you will need to make some adjustments with the new TB. With the issues you had with the first TB, I would definitely retune the VE,MAF, and WOT, but I am just OCD about my tunes.
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  9. #29
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    02pewterz28

    I looked over your tune, and there are many things I would do very different. Your cold temp idle speed was too low, idle airflow adapts messed up, stall protect was disabled, throttle cracker tables and many more. Just compare my tune to your last and stock tune to see the number of differences (157 compared to your last tune)

    Plus way over advanced Main Spark tables, 28-29* WOT spark timing is a recipe for broken ring lands, plus your not making any more power. But you might gain on a dyno and I've retuned "dyno tuned" cars that you couldn't drive in 6th at highway speeds as they were pinging badly. And your spark retard attack rate was reduced by ~20%.

    So you can load this tune into your car. Then you need to first adjust the Maf table to a least get your low load fuel trims closer and slightly negative before dialing in the RAF table.

    Next you need to adjust the stop screw to get the IAC counts to 20-40 at operating temp. Then finally do a cold start idle scan till operating temps, don't move the car or touch the throttle. And will probably have to lower the RAF from stock, but that's a better option then having to hold the throttle on a cold start.

    Your cam only has 3* overlap, so it shouldn't be this hard to tune.

    Russ Kemp
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    02pewterz28

    I looked over your tune, and there are many things I would do very different. Your cold temp idle speed was too low, idle airflow adapts messed up, stall protect was disabled, throttle cracker tables and many more. Just compare my tune to your last and stock tune to see the number of differences (157 compared to your last tune)

    Plus way over advanced Main Spark tables, 28-29* WOT spark timing is a recipe for broken ring lands, plus your not making any more power. But you might gain on a dyno and I've retuned "dyno tuned" cars that you couldn't drive in 6th at highway speeds as they were pinging badly. And your spark retard attack rate was reduced by ~20%.

    So you can load this tune into your car. Then you need to first adjust the Maf table to a least get your low load fuel trims closer and slightly negative before dialing in the RAF table.

    Next you need to adjust the stop screw to get the IAC counts to 20-40 at operating temp. Then finally do a cold start idle scan till operating temps, don't move the car or touch the throttle. And will probably have to lower the RAF from stock, but that's a better option then having to hold the throttle on a cold start.

    Your cam only has 3* overlap, so it shouldn't be this hard to tune.

    Russ Kemp
    Thanks russ I really appreciate the help. I'm waiting on the new tb to get here as you've mostliekly read the issues I'm having with the FAST. That will be heer thurs and I'll go ahead and load your tune in and see where we stand thanks man!

  11. #31
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    I've had no issues tuning a 90 mm Fast TB. Try this tune before spending money on a TB that you don't need.

    Russ Kemp

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    I've had no issues tuning a 90 mm Fast TB. Try this tune before spending money on a TB that you don't need.

    Russ Kemp
    Thanks Russ I already ordered th tb but I can return it if needed. I sort of want to try it anyway as the fast tb does hit my meziere whereas I hear the NW clears. Anyway I will try that tune first thing in the morning as I'm at school all day today.

    Question though, how does the iac count rely on maf calibration. For example my iac counts hot right now are 6-8 hot which is way low. Now when I re calibrate the maf how would that change? The engine should need the same amount of air, or am i seeing that wrong

  13. #33
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02pewterz28 View Post
    Question though, how does the iac count rely on maf calibration. For example my iac counts hot right now are 6-8 hot which is way low. Now when I re calibrate the maf how would that change? The engine should need the same amount of air, or am i seeing that wrong
    The IAC counts don't rely on the maf cal, but any tables that refer to airflow mode do.

    Russ Kemp

  14. #34
    Advanced Tuner JamesLinder's Avatar
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    Example Tune File

    If your VEs and MAF are not correct in the idle RPM/MAP areas, then you will not have a stable idle, period.

    Your idle air does not look sufficient during warm up. You will have surging, etc. because of over-fueling looking
    at the large VE values you have in the idle area.

    Take a look at this file and test using the base spark in gear and in park timing values from it, as well as the
    idle area of the high octane spark table and the base running idle airflow settings and the adaptive idle air settings
    in your tune. Use the initial start up air and friction air, etc from this tune. This should get you to a better starting
    place than you are now.

    It is a given that your setup probably increased the MAF curve by 7% to 10% and reduced your idle VEs by 15% to
    20% at idle RPM from stock. I do not have faith in the VE table in the attached tune, but if you have your MAF dialed
    in it might start okay anyway.

    Let me know how it goes. I have found that the air needed at ECT of 140 degrees F for good idle will often work well
    for all the warmer engine coolant temperature settings as well. You need about 0.3 lb/min more air for the in gear
    versus in park for an automatic, which I believe is not an issue for you due to manual transmission.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #35
    Advanced Tuner JamesLinder's Avatar
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    Check out my comments in this thread about TB blade position and recommended idle air values.
    Use what you think would pertain to your situation.
    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...465#post363465

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    The IAC counts don't rely on the maf cal, but any tables that refer to airflow mode do.

    Russ Kemp
    I see so even after i recalibrate the low end of the maf tables I'll still have to figure out what to do about having the iac count really low at hot idle? I have the histogram setup in the vcm to read the ltft's and stft's so should i just let the car idle and putt around town to get a good error reading for the maf tables down low where they matter for drive ability? If I understand correctly I dont want to mess with the calibration up top as i dont have a wideband so wherever the tuner put it is probably best for now?

  17. #37
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    As long as the IAC is above 0 counts at idle, your ok. You will need to back off the throttle stop screw as I set the idle spark timing to 22* vs your 15*. And as for the Maf, you got it right, but set up an STFT+LTFT pid for the Maf histogram. Or just turn of the LTFT's until you get the STFT's slightly negative, then re-enable the LTFT's

    Russ Kemp

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesLinder View Post
    Check out my comments in this thread about TB blade position and recommended idle air values.
    Use what you think would pertain to your situation.
    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...465#post363465
    I have been following that thread haha. Heres what happened with this and why I ordered the NW. I put the setup on and got the car to crank but had to sue the gas pedal. Let it warm up and adjusted it till I had a hot iac of about 25. I then got the maf tuned initially and started tackling getting the low speed drivebaility ok which was basically where I was when I started the thread. WOT was tuned but low speed still needs a little work obviously haha.

    Fast forward a bit and the damn thing would not start cold even with the iac almost maxxed out. So i opened the blade to .61 v the problem then and now is that it cranks up cold just fine now, however when it gets hot the iac goes to 0 and the idle starts to do some funky things. However before when the iac count was at 25 the only time I had an issue was at low speed in reverse

  19. #39
    Advanced Tuner JamesLinder's Avatar
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    I've not had much luck tuning using any method other than a wideband oxygen sensor. If you tune with one I think you will
    see an amazing improvement in the results. You can install it in one of the rear sensor bungs in your exhaust either temporarily
    or permanently. Once you dial in the MAF and VE just about all of your problems will be resolved. Costs $279, so less than
    the tuning software you purchased. I have the Zeitronix Zt-2 Model 2010 with controller and am pleased with it.

    http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.shtml

    http://www.maperformance.com/zeitron...FQgDaQod7JMAQw

  20. #40
    Advanced Tuner JamesLinder's Avatar
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    If on a warm day, with motor warmed up to normal operating temperature, in park or neutral at idle you still have
    a positive IAC count, then technically you should be okay because this should represent your minimal air requirement
    and there should not be a situation when the IAC needs to remove any additional air to achieve a stable idle. I would
    however recommend that you try and not go below 20 counts so that adaptive idle has at least a little room to do its
    job as the air temperature changes, etc.