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Thread: Ran The Russk K IDLE but results dont make sense

  1. #1

    Ran The Russk K IDLE but results dont make sense

    Hey guys I ran the config and its saying that my RAF is too high sometimes by almost 5 grams...This makes absolutely no sense to me, as it sits now the car cannot start cold with the a/c on and sometimes even with it off. Both tab le and tune are in g/sec also take a look please. The idle log I used an my current tune are here. The RAF seems to be too low I upped it by about 2 g/sec and my idle seems better but I dont like blind tuning.

    Capture.PNG
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Have you adjusted your TB blade? Is it aftermarket?

    My Russ K Idle results say I need almost no airflow, which doesn't make any sense either. But I have the set screw too far open and my STITs are like -75...

  3. #3
    Heres a log of it doing exctly what its been doing this was near operating temp though. It looks like it wants 17g/sec but my raf is only allowing 13 should I add more to there? If I load it into the histogram the results make no sense


    log.hpl

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
    Have you adjusted your TB blade? Is it aftermarket?

    My Russ K Idle results say I need almost no airflow, which doesn't make any sense either. But I have the set screw too far open and my STITs are like -75...
    Hey Jake its Redbird from ls1tech just so you know hahaha. And yes its a fast 92 tb my iac counts hot are around 25 and the stit's are around -2.8 so It appears that I should subtract from it however I laready have issues wth getting it to start cold so idk? Is your IAC maxxed out shut? I found a couple tunes in the repository with similar mods so i may copy their raf and see if at least points me in the right direction

    Guys heres another log I made after doing some adjustments it still hates to start with the a/c on any help is appreciated

    scan3.hplcurrent tune 2.hpt

  5. #5
    russ k idle log.hpl

    heres another config i ran this morning do these results make sense to anyone? the car is an 02 camaro with 243 heads, 230/232 114 lsa cam bolt ons EWP, and a FAST 102/92. Before the fast with the same mods it was happy with around 9 g/sec at hot idle so how does it make sense that with a bigger intake that would be less?
    Last edited by 02pewterz28; 10-04-2014 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    Is there a hole in the throttle blade? If not, and your sure you have no vacuum leaks you need to lower the RAF table or close the throttle blade. As a larger throttle body can flow more air with the same opening as the stock one.

    Then I would return the idle spark back to stock (22*) as no cam wants or likes only 15*. And a manual trans only uses the in gear tables. To help the starting, add 4 g/sec to the stock start up initial table. Also return all the adaptive idle tables to stock. Same for the ST Adapt Airflow Max.

    Another table that retards the timing when the A/C is turned on & off, is the A/C Bump Torque table. Just zero the entire table.

    Russ Kemp

  7. #7
    thanks russ I just did another log but it didnt really produce any new results I'll do that and report back

  8. #8
    no hole in the tb by the way and no leaks that I can see or here the car drives just fine every where else and the fuel trims are in line

  9. #9
    Hey Russ

    Well the good news is that I can start up the car now with the a/c on. Problem is that since returning the idle spark tables back to stock and dropping the RAF values I have a very unstable idle. Once I put the idle spark back to stock the IAC counts went to 8-10 at hot idle so that caused issues. I then closed the tb to get 25-30 counts at hot idle with ac off.

    Coming to a stop the car will surge then die, even backing out a space can cause issues. The car will hold a stable idle once stopped but you can hear that its not a strong one if that makes sense? I tried to increase the RAF by a couple grams and no change. I added some throttle follower to help the drop rate and that helped a tad but not really with the weak idle or surge.... In the last part of the log it shows my stits as positive which doesnt make sense to me because when i inputted the RAF values I added and extra gram just for good measure.


    I'm getting so frustrated here lol I want to learna dn it just seems like if I fix one issue it brings up something else.

    Thanks for the hlpe russ attached is my current tune in the car and the log with what its doing. At some points i use the throttle to keep it from dying. All my fuel trims are within 3% or so, so no vac leaks. The weird thing is before the FAST 15 degrees of timing worked fine so when we retuned for the fast initally we didnt see a need to change it. Now in the process of working these bugs out it seems to have problems...HELPP lol
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
    I responded on LS1Tech.

    Change your Adaptive Spark to 3g and -.5g. You have it reversed. I'd also reduce the aggressiveness of the Idle Overspark underspeed and overspeed. Multiply by .25 across the board.

    Also use the bi-directional controls and use the AFR function and lean it out a bit and see if that helps. Go up in .5 steps and wait 5-10 sec and see if the idle changes. You might be running a little too rich. Your VE table looks a bit fat down there. In fact, go ahead and multiply the 400-800-1200 tables by about .9 and see.
    Last edited by JakeFusion; 10-04-2014 at 06:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
    I responded on LS1Tech.

    Change your Adaptive Spark to 3g and -.5g. You have it reversed. I'd also reduce the aggressiveness of the Idle Overspark underspeed and overspeed. Multiply by .25 across the board.

    Also use the bi-directional controls and use the AFR function and lean it out a bit and see if that helps. Go up in .5 steps and wait 5-10 sec and see if the idle changes. You might be running a little too rich. Your VE table looks a bit fat down there. In fact, go ahead and multiply the 400-800-1200 tables by about .9 and see.
    Hey jake russ told me to put it all back to stock so thats what I did lol. Although now after going out to the car I can say that it didnt work afterall even with his recomendations the car still wont start with ac on. I tried to also add more startup air and that fubared as well lol. I know its technically shouldnt be done but then again it should be able to. an ok ill check it out,the weird thing is that every once in a blue moon it fires right up no prob?

    I dont have a wideband so i didnt want to screw with the ve all that much lol I talked to my tuner and if I cant get it sorted by the end of next week I'm going to bring it back. It just sucks as its a decent drive and I' like to be able to say i did it.
    Last edited by 02pewterz28; 10-04-2014 at 06:53 PM.

  12. #12
    hey jake heres what i did let me know if anyone else has comments

    geoff working tune 3 revision with ve.hpt

  13. #13
    one other thing my fuel trims now are slightly in the positive so wouldnt that mean the ve is lean as it is since its adding a touch of fuel

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    Your not in SD mode, so the VE table is not affecting the fuel trims. Your Maf table is lower than stock all the way to 11625 Hz. Most likely due to having the injector flow rate table too low or the offset table too high.

    It would help a lot if you would list all the mods, cam/injector specs etc.

    Russ Kemp

  15. #15
    Tuner POWERZONE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    It would help a lot if you would list all the mods, cam/injector specs etc.

    Russ Kemp
    This is a must, so we can help you and be percise. Other than that, it is just a shot in the dark.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    Your not in SD mode, so the VE table is not affecting the fuel trims. Your Maf table is lower than stock all the way to 11625 Hz. Most likely due to having the injector flow rate table too low or the offset table too high.

    It would help a lot if you would list all the mods, cam/injector specs etc.

    Russ Kemp
    Sorry I thought I had it listed here oops lol. The car was dyno tuned here locallty by a reputable lsx tuner so the wot and maf readings should be good but here are all the mods. Made 440 on the dyno and the tuner will let me bring the car back but he's out of town and a bit of a drive so i want to get this resolved myself.

    Mods are 1-7/8 LT'S, 33lb twin light weight clutch, full exhaust, 243 heads, Meziere EWP FAST 102/92, 230/232 114 cam, ati underdrive 10%, 85mm z06(reason for low maf table), LS3 injectors (data gotten from here from Dsteck) I've heard from many people his data was spot on....

    that should be everything that matters. I was thinking about adding a little more idle spark than even the stock tables when i redo the config tomorrow now that i increased the iac by closing the set screw. Weird thing is that the car seems to idle worse with more timing at his point anyway
    Last edited by 02pewterz28; 10-04-2014 at 10:22 PM.

  17. #17
    Tuner POWERZONE's Avatar
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    Do not get too wrapped up into IAC counts. I see many guys get too wrapped up with this and sometimes butcher their TB's just to get a certain count or v reading.

    Set your startup idle table back to stock, then add 2g's to the entire table. You may need to adjust you TB screw to around .55 to .60.

    Then take your base running airflow table and add 2gs at a time until it starts and hold idle.

    Sounds like you just do not have enough air.

    Then after you get it to idle decent, then go back and fine tune the VE and MAF tables as they need some work, especially for a cam of that size and injectors.

    You will need to fix those spark tables once you finish with the idle tuning as I bet it will have some surging with those numbers.
    Last edited by POWERZONE; 10-05-2014 at 08:35 AM.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by POWERZONE View Post
    Do not get too wrapped up into IAC counts. I see many guys get too wrapped up with this and sometimes butcher their TB's just to get a certain count or v reading.

    Set your startup idle table back to stock, then add 2g's to the entire table. You may need to adjust you TB screw to around .55 to .60.

    Then take your base running airflow table and add 2gs at a time until it starts and hold idle.

    Sounds like you just do not have enough air.

    Then after you get it to idle decent, then go back and fine tune the VE and MAF tables as they need some work, especially for a cam of that size and injectors.

    You will need to fix those spark tables once you finish with the idle tuning as I bet it will have some surging with those numbers.
    This is what I initially thought also but no matter how much air I add it never gets any better and then just ends up subtracting it anyway iwent all the way to 20 g/sec just to see if it would start and no dice. The weird part is that sometimes it starts up with a/c no problem but 8/10 times it will just flare up then die. The log calls for 5 g/c at hot idle but if I enter those values it drives like crap. Also I went back to the stock timing tables and it absolutley hates it and the more I add it keeps getting worse I found 15-17 is the sweet spot but I realize that doesnt sound right?\
    Last edited by 02pewterz28; 10-05-2014 at 09:34 AM.

  19. #19
    Tuner POWERZONE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02pewterz28 View Post
    This is what I initially thought also but no matter how much air I add it never gets any better and then just ends up subtracting it anyway iwent all the way to 20 g/sec just to see if it would start and no dice. The weird part is that sometimes it starts up with a/c no problem but 8/10 times it will just flare up then die. The log calls for 5 g/c at hot idle but if I enter those values it drives like crap. Also I went back to the stock timing tables and it absolutley hates it and the more I add it keeps getting worse I found 15-17 is the sweet spot but I realize that doesnt sound right?\
    Usually if you have to hold your foot on the pedal just to get it to start, its an air issue and not enough.

    Sounds like your TB set screw may need to be adjusted to open up the TB blade for some more air. Right now don't worry about counts, your just trying to get it to start consistantly.

    Adjust the TB set screw to something like .60v and keep adjusting the TB set screw until it starts. Try not to go above .65v

    Try this timing below.
    pz56.JPG
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by POWERZONE View Post
    Usually if you have to hold your foot on the pedal just to get it to start, its an air issue and not enough.

    Sounds like your TB set screw may need to be adjusted to open up the TB blade for some more air. Right now don't worry about counts, your just trying to get it to start consistantly.

    Adjust the TB set screw to something like .60v and keep adjusting the TB set screw until it starts. Try not to go above .65v

    Try this timing below.
    pz56.JPG
    Ok I opened the tb up to .61 and it will now start up with ac and off, the problem with that is when I do this the warm dle becomes very unstable due to the iac going to 3-4 counts. Messing with timing only made it worse as I added more timing to the tune it would become more and more unstable. I couldnt even load all the timing you had in that zip.

    Starting to wonder if the TB maybe causng some issues. I know fast tb's have a very small iac hole and when cold there is not enoguh iac flow then when hot the iac must close all the way to compensate for the opened blade.