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Thread: understanding throttle pressure drop

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    understanding throttle pressure drop

    So reading through my ecm stuff looking for ways to opt the tune and see throttle pressure drop. Says to increase responsiveness adj between 20-40 kpa. So table is from 20-220 kpa and 1000 rpm to 6900 or so and can go from .05 to 64 psi. So trying to understand what it is looking for to get this I found an interesting write up on this intercooler webpage about understanding turbos.

    Another aspect of intercoolers to be considered is pressure drop. The pressure read by a boost gauge is the pressure in the intake manifold. It is not the same as the pressure that the turbocharger itself puts out. To get a fluid, such as air, to flow there must be a difference in pressure from one end to the other. Consider a straw that is sitting on the table. It doesn't having anything moving through it until you pick it up, stick it in your mouth, and change the pressure at one end (either by blowing or sucking). In the same way the turbo outlet pressure is higher than the intake manifold pressure, and will always be higher than the intake pressure, because there must be a pressure difference for the air to move.

    The difference in pressure required for a given amount of air to move from turbo to intake manifold is an indication of the hydraulic restriction of the intercooler, the up pipe, and the throttle body. Let's say you are trying to move 255 gram/sec of air through a stock intercooler, up pipe, and throttle body and there is a 4 psi difference that is pushing it along (I'm just making up numbers here). If your boost gauge reads 15 psi, that means the turbo is actually putting up 19 psi. Now you buy a PT-70 and slap on some Champion heads. Now you are moving 450 gm/sec of air. At 15 psi boost in the intake manifold the turbo now has to put up 23 psi, because the pressure drop required to get the higher air flow is now 8 psi instead of the 4 that we had before. More flow with the same equipment means higher pressure drop. So we put on a new front mount intercooler. It has a lower pressure drop, pressure drop is now 4 psi, so the turbo is putting up 19 psi again. Now we add the 65 mm throttle body and the pressure drop is now 3 psi. Then we add the 2.5" up pipe, and it drops to 2.5 psi. Now to make 15 psi boost the turbo only has to put up 17.5 psi. The difference in turbo outlet temperature between 23 psi and 17.5 psi is about 40 deg (assuming a constant efficiency)! So you can see how just by reducing the pressure drop we can lower the temperatures while still running the same amount of boost.

    I have seen some misunderstandings regarding intercooler pressure drop and how it relates to heat transfer. For example, one vendor's catalog implies that if you had little or no pressure drop then you would have no heat transfer. This is incorrect. Pressure drop and heat transfer are relatively independent, you can have good heat transfer in an intercooler that has a small pressure drop if it is designed correctly. It is easier to have good heat transfer when there is a larger pressure drop because the fluid's turbulence helps the heat transfer coefficient (U), but I have seen industrial coolers that are designed to have less than 0.2 psi of drop while flowing a heck of a lot more air, so it is certainly feasible.

    Pressure drop is important because the higher the turbo discharge pressure is the higher the temperature of the turbo air. When we drop the turbo discharge pressure we also drop the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo. When we do that we also drop the intercooler outlet temperature, although not as much, but hey, every little bit helps. This lower pressure drop is part of the benefit offered by new, bigger front mount intercoolers; by the Duttweiler neck modification to stock location intercoolers; by bigger up pipes; and by bigger throttle bodies. You can also make the turbo work less hard by improving the inlet side to it. K&N air filters, free flowing MAF pipes, removing a screen from the MAF, removing the MAF itself when switching to an aftermarket fuel injection system, the upcoming 3" and 3.5" MAFs from Modern Muscle, these all reduce the pressure drop in the turbo inlet system which makes the compressor work less to produce the same boost which will reduce the turbo discharge temperature (among other, and probably greater, benefits).

    Now this is a great write up and understand a lot more on how to free up or reduce heat from the loop from air filter to the intake and I understand with throttle pressure drop is now at the throttle body and why it is there but still dont understand what the table does and why adding this adjustment will make it more responsive. Anyone understand this table and it it worth messing with? Factory dont touch it but there for some reason. All I can come up with thinking about it is the more air that travels the faster it goes so more rpm and more boost you see the more the restriction will grow. So would think a low number in the lower rpm and increase it as rpm and pressure goes up if it is an off set to this and how it makes it more responsive. This is totally an educated guess .
    Last edited by lt1z350; 07-24-2014 at 07:07 PM.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  2. #2
    Basic thermodynamics lesson for everyone. Simplified:

    P1*V1/T1 = P2*V2/T2 where P1 = pressure of system in initial state ; V1 = volume of system in initial state ; T1 = temperature of system in initial state ; P2 = pressure final state ; V2 = volume final state ; T2 = temp final state

    Law of conservation of energy, the initial and final states of the closed system must be balanced. If your pressure goes up, your temp also goes up to keep the equation balanced.

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    So what is the purpose of the table? By inserting a value of psi what is it doing mechanically to the system so to be able to understand it then have a better idea how to adjust it.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  4. #4
    I need to look at it. Haven't played with an ats yet. Was waiting for ats-v

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    its for taking into consideration flow properties of the tb. the computer will request more air if it knows it has a restriction point that it needs to compensate for.
    in essence raising the value would tell the ecu the tb is not very efficient and thus would be compensated for with more flow and it boost is all that's left to be adjusted then up it will go.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    Going to be waiting another year according to cadillac and it will be the twin turbo v6 on another platform so nothing to learn to apply back to your car so a waste of time. At least this version is in the family though ecu is different. So guessing you guys don't have this as an option to play with? If you did would yours with it or see it as not worth it ? So far most I have read on other forums that have tried it say it kills the car so give up easily on it.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  7. #7
    I meant I'm not spending too much time on ats right now because the TTV6 will be my next toy.

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    not a lot of private tuners will comment on the ats...it will be a platform most seen at a proper dyno facility im sure
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    Ttv6 hand granade you mean. Buddy at deal has had multiple come in with broken ring lands already on stock tunes. Said used a bad piston design typical gm never uses a good piston in any engine ever.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    Also I was asking a friend that still works at the caddy dealer I worked at and turns out it runs the same ecu and tcm as it runs the same automatic as ats well 6l45e for ats and cts vsport with ttv6 has the 6l50e which is same trans wit very minor changes same bell housing and platform. The ctsv runs the bigger heavy duty 6l806l90 platform which us like Camaro and can actually handle big power. The limit on the smaller is around 500 and breaks inputs and destroys the internal shaft that connects to the 5-6 hub. I was considering waiting for the new Buick grand national until saw powertrain they are running and knew just like most gm products they don't run a good enough driver train for what engines can support. So back to ats 4 cylinder and any vvt6 u can buy will run the same ECU and looking through all my tables it has two of all the sensors it would need for that engine just not used. Two mafs iat boost sensors so on so can see when the came out with it they knew the v6 would use this same platform. So would be a good jump if really considering one. I was until saw piston issues the land between the top and second ring breaks from what I saw on the couple they have there apart now. Going to have a recall most likely and lower the boost and power level to keep them alive until can go to piston design I would guess. We saw it on the old North Star back in 1998-99 which wasn't boosted but all kinds of piston issues and started trying to convince customers 3 quarts of oil was normal every 1000 miles. lol just typical to gm too cheap to actuall run a forged piston in anything even the top of the line supercharged v8 engines. Keeping this to around 400rwhp will keep it and trans alive and not have to worry about it like if was a ttv6 and having to worry about the trans at 500 lbs tq and many internal issues. Someone will eventually make billet aftermarket parts what the hell it's only money. Lol
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150