Caddy ats looking to other Eco guys for help with meth tune

[lt1z350]

Just got the aem meth setup and trying to get an idea from guys that have run it on how much timing is safe to add. 50/50 mix and right now on stock timing tables actually a little less than stock running 260kpa max so far in tune. No tune feels good day to night so now looking to max out the setup for power. Day time is like night so already a huge plus with this on car. Can post more on vehicle later just wanted to get this going. Thanks in advance for help

[JimmyS]

I run 15* up top on my setup with meth injection and 25psi pushed by the WR3 turbo. Mine is an LNF in a Sky so I'm not sure how that differs from your ATS. If you're not getting any knock, start increasing in small increments (1 - 2*) at 100% load to 220-260% from 3000rpm to 6500 (or whatever your max rpm is) and log, log, log. Keep an eye on the KR and when you start getting some, it's time to back off.

Smooth in the rest of the table and you should be good to go. You can most likely also adjust your PE table a bit with the meth spraying. There are far more knowledgeable people on here than me that can give you lots of better direction but at least you've got a start. I don't know how the ATS in HP Tuners differs from the LNF but if it's close to the same, you'll also want to read up on the optimum spark tables and adjust them as well.

Read through the LNF threads and watch the videos on the LNF that cobaltssoverbooster posted and that should give you a great start.

[lt1z350]

I appreciate the help and it is a start and thats what I need. I have tried to search but yet to come up with much on tables for maximizing them even with out meth so far as I am sure there are gains to be had over stock tables. I believe as our engines are different they are much the same in how they react to boost timing and fueling from what I have read on them as my engine is just an updated version from what I believe. I remember my first experience with a pontiac soltice at gainesville raceway here in florida. It was on a tune and meth from what the old man said and was running faster than my 1992 formula at the time 108 in the quarter mile and I was amazed. So when my wife needed a new car and needed a 4 door saw the ats was a similar platform I had to get it over a v-6 cts or even the ctsv with a v8 and bad on gas. Been tuning a long time but the turbo direct injection is very new to me and without the help of guys like you I would be lost. Sounds like your car should be pretty quick so I will post up a tune and last log and if you want to take a look and recommend anything that would be a great help plus anyone else that can chime in would be great as many heads are better then one or two.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

a lot of cobalts in the 20 range. start at 16 and move it up as allowed

[lt1z350]

What do you guys have stock at wot? Or saying add 20 0ver all? I posted a tune so can compare it to yours so maybe can get a better idea where I am stock as I have yet to change any timing stuff at all so what you see is factory timing tables in my tune. Thanks

[codename Bil Doe]

Jimmy - a lot more going on with the ATS ecu. I've peaked at it but haven't started playing around yet.

lt1z - He's saying peak timing at high load & rpm. Your timing tables will ramp down to that timing from high rpm/low load (to high load & rpm) and up to that timing from high load/low rpm (to high load & rpm).

For LNF @ 23psi I've found max I can run is 11° on 91 octane, 18-20° on 100 octane, 23-24° on 110 (same as e85).

[cobaltssoverbooster]

cobalts max timing stock 15*
methanol will normally land 91 pump in the 108 range or close to it so when most run stock 15 on cobalts i can get them up to 19 or 20 max with no detonations.

[lt1z350]

15° is a lot more timing then the ATS has in stock form I believe it's around 0° to 1° at wide-open throttle. I have heard of a few guys running anywhere from 5 to 8° on pump gas I haven't tried it yet. the only way I've gone about making more power was I leaned out mixture a little bit and of course up the boost and eliminated torque management but yet to play with timing until now at this point. I know that the cam timing plays an important part in allowing you to run more timing as does a good flowing exhaust which I have on the car now so those things being considered knowing what Bill has done with cam tables I'm thinking I should adjust the cam tables at the same time I do the timing I just need to know with this particular car why it is different. If the mechanics are the same and it's just a tuning thing you would think I would could get away with the same things that you guys do
. If one of you guys get the time to check out that tune I posted or post up a tune of yours that I can compare modified timing and cam tables that would be a great help. Know a lot won't let people see what they do so if can look at mine and comment. I am very old school and used to seeing kpa tables where wot was one end and idle the other so still figuring out how to look at a timing table and see where wot is and even idle and cruise as maf values can change at the same rpm vrs load so makes tuning this way a lot harder then what I am used to seeing. So I have to rely on your hard work to help learn so appreciate when you guys take time to help.

[codename Bil Doe]

Cam tables will change the efficiency of the motor at different rpm. Stock the LNF comes with a ton of midrange overlap for blow through. Less resistance against the pistons loses power but helps it freewheel better. Gains come in mpg on the freeway. Cam tables are n easy way to make power without changing boost at all. Let me take a look. Need to familiarize myself with this ecu.

[codename Bil Doe]

I'm hopping around real quick looking at it. Not totally thorough as I don't understand this ecu yet. Couple questions and thoughts. These are only things I would do when tuning.



VE Correction Factor - Is this similar to the LS2 where the ecu is using a blend of VE and MAF? If so, I would disable this and run purely MAF. I found doing this on my LS2 made the engine more responsive as it was running strictly off the airflow the engine was actually seeing. If the MAF fails it will automatically default to VE anyways.

Cam tables - smooth them out as a starting point. Lot of peaks and valleys. How do the numbers correlate on the ATS ecu? I noticed they're all positive. I'm assuming the intake can only be advanced and the exhaust only retarded like the LNF but they're now using positive numbers to represent both. Is that correct?

PE Enable pedal - I would lower this some as you're boosting pretty high now. Full boost can come on without 80% pedal.

PE EQ - lean in the 3k range, rich higher up for DI. Check LNF

Remove PE time delay.


Those are a few things I see that I would mess with.

[lt1z350]

Thanks for the look and a few ideas I have read a lot of your posts and know u really have your poop in a group when comes to these type engines. I was reading on your issues with the broke turbo shaft and you figured it out right when I was going to comment as my old eldorado with a North Star had a similar issue with loosing all compression on cranking and was like it was blown up. My issue was cam sensors very weird to do that but it cleared it up for me. I can only imagine if you were spend some time on this setup what you can figure out as your car seems very impressive for stock from what I have read and knowing how fast some of the cars like the Shelby are and to hang with it on a 4th gear pull is amazing.
The closest I have tuned to this setup is my 2007 Tahoe so I have a lot to learn and the help here is great. To not have you ask any "why did u do that questions" I guess I haven't done anything stupid. I try not to get aggressive with anything and learn by trial and error until I get pointed in the right direction on things so help just cuts the learning curve down. I have a huge hook up with lkq aftermarket parts if still needing a turbo I can look into it for you. Just pm me all the car info if need it still. We have a back door guy that sells stuff cheap to our shop so if it is available sure I can find it for you.
Looking at my tune can you tell why they run a lot more timing stock in your setup over mine? I believe the compression is the same and mechanics of the engine are close for tune so different.

[codename Bil Doe]

I'm still learning a lot. I hate this torque requested pedal concept, but I've figured out with what's available from HPT with the LNF ecu to make it function extremely linear. Feels just like drive by wire. I love VVT.

Looks like the ATS has a lot more unlocked. But, with that comes the ridiculous number of unnecessary tables. Looks like whomever wrote the code was trying way too hard for flexibility. IMO they're trying way too hard. Heater idle rpm? Really?

I ask a lot of "why did you do that" questions simply because I don't understand. You or someone else may have discovered something I didn't. When I don't get an answer I start experimenting. That's how I learned the other functions of the ecu and how to get them to work the way I wanted.

I am looking for turbos. Stock LNF K04's as backups with no shaft play. PM me if you have any leads. Typically can find them for $100± shipped.

[lt1z350]

yea the balance of this electronic throttle is a pain. I really love that it will just chop the throttle when it gets pissed off at an overboost and just kills overall power at that point. Recovery time is long if chops for overboost only closes for a fraction of a second it isn't that being an issue but the recovery of boost and lost torque can kill a run or even just trying to get up on the highway from the on ramp and becomes very frustrating. I thought setting the overboost table high and other tables on outer limits it would just let it go but I was wrong there. Next is to try to control it more with dc tables and finding the point of over boost and just prior open the gate a little to try to catch it before it can happen. So many parameters work together and one affects another so think you get it licked and another thing needs adjusted. Im just happy the car idles better with the heat on now. lol can do that but not adjust the 4k limit in park and neutral that makes it call out overspeed when free rev car. Some of this really makes me wonder why but rather too much than not enough I guess.
Where is a good start on learning how to set timing tables and cam timing something I can read through with possible example tables? Does it exist? When I went from seeing 24 to 28 max timing on my 1992 383 turbo firebird to 0 to 1 degree on this caddy I was just baffled. In a naturally aspirated engine GM leave a ton on the table. I have added around 12 degrees at wot and up to 20 degrees in cruising on my 2007 Tahoe to get great power and near 20mpg with that big pig of a truck so really makes me wonder how much is still on the table on the caddy and still being safe? I guess that is without the meth then adding in the normal 8-15 degrees meth allows for so why some good reading would be a big plus as a few have mentioned I needed to read about optimum spark tables and something similar on the cams would be great too. Going to do the few changes recommended by Bill and Jimmy and see how it likes it and go from there for now.

[codename Bil Doe]

Different motor. Direct injection and turbo. Can't compare to port injection or NA. Read up on the LNF cam and timing tables. Plenty out there.

I've found on the LNF with the stock K04 that the limit is ~0.485 sec to go from 0 to 20psi with my tune. That's from cruising freeway 60mph in 3rd to flooring it. I backed it off a little because I don't need it to hit that hard. But, it's plenty fast for most all applications.

[lt1z350]

Which table was giving you the ability to increase boost like that in a times table? I have been adjusting speed off waste gate and prop gain mostly and on mine if starts to spool up too quickly it will buck really bad it's weird what it does so hard to explain exactly. One problem I am facing is how lazy the transfer from no boost to good torque for pulling around a car at speed is a good example. So lazy to spool and this wall it slams is limiting me so guess some other table gets pissed when raise it too quickly and yet to figure out if that's the case. So many tables under boost torque managment it is a pain to balance.

[codename Bil Doe]

WGDC sets your overall boost. Don't use DAL for this if you want a linear pedal. Set DAL to linear ramp. Read up on the two Optimum Spark threads for overall boost and timing control. Then, follow up with the PID's thread. Prop gain affects how quickly it ramps, integral how quickly it shuts the tb and limits boost float after lifting, derivative controls overboosting on ramp up. Didn't really look at the ATS ecu to see how it's set up.

[codename Bil Doe]

Yup just checked. ATS has PID's the same. Someone at GM just thought it would be funny to flip the axes. Notice how the prop and derivative tables have zeroed out rows and columns. Wonder why that is? Hm...

[lt1z350]

I have heard you say that before and yet to figure out what your getting at with that comment. I would guess since some are zeroed that is where you get full response and add to slow it down? So what how you explained it I am assuming my over boost issue that closes the throttle can be controled more I with adding to the derivative in areas where the car is climbing too high? I had cut my exisiting prop tables exactaly in half from what factory was and it did spool much quicker and still had a lot left to play with. I had an issue and can't remember at moment so put some back as figured need to adjust something else along with it to make it fast but smooth. If remember it was very abrupt and not smooth with the pedal.
I did read through the optimum spark tables and my ecu doesn't seem to have the table your describing to cut and paste and that along with the main spark table mine had high and low octane for main then all the sub tables and didn't see anything you and mike were describing. I need to find a stock or modded LNF file to look at so can relate between two when reading so can easier apply the theory of the explanation if the table is different to mine. Seems the ats crowd doesn't have the gurus like the LNF crowd has as of yet. As much as I would like to spend days playing and learning being a daily driver to my wife I only get weekends to experiment so leaves me less time to learn between reading and applying what I have learned and then trial and error. My priority of making it more enjoyable to drive for me doesn't always fall in line with hers of getting decent gas mileage and being peppy enough as she calls it to get in and out of traffic or off a light better. She seems to notice my changes more then me sometimes as she drives it more. I have goals I have buddies that don't believe a 4 cylinder can ever be fast v8 guys with mustangs and camaros I want to just shut up and know the car has it in it if I can ever get it unlocked correctly. Eventually want to vist seabring and road Atlanta with the car and just run a test and tune type day on the track and invest in looking into some sort of class I can compete in with it being it is modded some.

[codename Bil Doe]

This is where you have to use your own power of reasoning and deduction. For example, I said above that the derivative gain will control your boost ramp overshoot. Below is the derivative gain table from a 2009 GXP:

derivative.jpg

Notice all the zeroed columns? Bone stock when the boost delta is high you could get boost spikes of 28 psi + while holding 23 psi steady state. The columns that control that overshoot are all zeroed. Adjust those columns and you can start controlling rapid boost changes.

Every thread I read before I started tuning and experimenting said that throttle lift boost spikes are normal. Flat out not true. That can be controlled with the integral gain and Optimum Torque (lower values in the low load/high rpm ranges where boost spikes occur). My pulls now boost to 23 psi with NO overshoot and NO off-throttle boost spikes.

As for Mustangs and Camaros, I race against them in my class along with c5z's, 911's, and others. On a track day I was just doing an initial shakedown before I figured out the race cam timing tricks. I could pull a 2006 Carrera S down the straights at Laguna pretty easily on the top end.

Personally, I set each of those tables to a single value - single value for prop, single for integral, single for derivative. One of the tricks to giving the throttle pedal a completely linear feel.

edit: for safety in testing, I also used the reasoning that the derivative table controls overshoot. So, higher numbers would be safer to start at. I chose the highest value and made the whole table that value. Just remember that ALL the tables in the tune work together. Changing one will affect many others.

[JimmyS]

Bill,

Your cam tables (along with optimum spark and optimum torque) have really helped me with my setup and now that I am able to tune the trans as well with the 2.25 beta release, it has really helped to wake this little car up. I'm still in the learning process but I try something new almost every day or at least every day that I drive the car to work.

Thanks!