Can you guys do me a little favor?

[gmtech16450yz]

Can you guys look at this tune and tell me what you think? It's NOT mine so say EXACTLY what you think about it. I need a critique of this tune coming from someone other than me. I know what it is, I want you guys to tell me what it is though too. You guys are smart guys, you'll see the same things I've seen in this tune.

BTW, I copied and pasted the data into another VIN to protect the owner. The car is an '08 2.0L LNF. It has an EFR turbo on it. Do a compare to a stock file and look at what the tuner changed. If you need a stock '08 lnf file to compare with, I can post one or you can get one from the tune repository. Oh it also has the GMPP map changes to it so compare to a GMPP file or just ignore those differences.

Be honest and brutal guys, that's what I'm looking for! Look at the spark and opt spark tables especially.

Thanks,

John

Mystery Tune 1.hpt

[codename Bil Doe]

Its_a_trap.jpg

[gmtech16450yz]

Its_a_trap.jpg

lolz. It's not really! It's from a guy asking for help, honest. Give me your honest opinion of what's been done in this tune so I can forward it to the owner of the car. I'll explain more after, I don't want to skew the results here!

BTW, VERY nice to meet you last Saturday. I've always kinda liked this forum and the guys on it, and you reminded me of why. You're a nice guy that knows his chit. I like that. There's been some smart guys on here, and I realize how rare that is on an internet forum. (I've hung out on the Cobalt forum. Hella lolz there.) I was talking to one of the tuners there at Borelli's about how the C7 / LT1 guys are reading all our old posts to learn what they can about DI. I'm sure there's a bunch of LT1 tuners that are cranking the PE down to .78 since that's what they did on all the other C6's they did, right? Not. I also wonder what's happening to the LT1 heads that are being "ported". Yikes!

Thanks Bill.

[codename Bil Doe]

Just typing as I look. Will edit as I go if I notice anything.

- idle bumped up (which I like because it smooths out LNF's)

- I personally don't like using DAL to control boost which it looks like he's doing at lower rpm. Won't have much affect requesting that much air from 400-1500 rpm. Can piss off other parts of the ECU as it tries to compensate

- Cam tables (all four intake, all four exhaust) should be the same not different. One intake cam table copied to all 4. Same with exhaust. Making major ecu changes and having the tables different values will really screw up driveability because the ecu will be hopping between tables for values. More extreme boost requests leads to faster table hopping and potentially major issues. I've noticed this is worst when accidentally missing a change on a timing or optimum spark table while the other three are the same

-Same as above with idle cam tables. He's doing some crazy things with the cat heating cam tables on the exhaust. Intake has 3 tables the same, one different (idle warm). The ecu DOES reference multiple tables even if it calls one main (warm). It will hop around.

-Don't zero the knock angle cam tables. Zero the factor, but leave the table the same as your intake or exhaust cam table. If it's referenced, you don't want the ecu jumping from your cam setting to 0° and back.

-Smooth the cam tables. See "LNF LHU race cam" thread for pics of smoothed tables

-Personal thing, but IDK why people set the PE to be 1.0 above 3k rpm. Regardless of pedal position, if you're boosting above 3k rpm why would you want it that lean? Richen it up even in the 60% and 80% regions. Considering how fast you can make this engine boost from 0-20psi in mid-range ( just under 0.5sec with stock k04), it's more of a safety issue imo.

-Why set most all of the COT table to 1 except the low rpm high boost? If there's not cat, set it all to 1's. CAT protection is still enabled. If there is a CAT, setting the table to all 1's will burn it up. Leave it stock or richen it a little if you do have a CAT.

- All 4 main spark tables are different. Those should all be set to the same value. Pick a timing table, copy and paste it to the other 3. Start from there for your baseline. When you make a timing change, make sure you copy and paste that change to the other three tables.

- WGDC is at 100% for 100% throttle. I'm guessing he doesn't have 3bar sensors? At 100% WGDC he'll be boosting way past 25psi. Watch out and make sure to monitor. The stock 2bar won't read above 23.6psi. Be careful once everything else is corrected and make sure he has 3bar sensors.

-Optimum Spark tables should all be the same. All four tables are different now. That will cause a lot of driveability issues. I have missed changes to one table before after flashing an update in the parking lot and the car was undriveable. Took me a couple minutes to figure out what happened. Choose one optimum spark table, copy it to the other 3, and make changes to all simultaneously.

-the more he pushes the Optimum Torque table to 100%, the more he will have to adjust the timing tables (and, subsequently, the Optimum Spark tables) for any part throttle dips. Just something to keep in the back of his mind if he does that. I use the Optimum Torque tables to eliminate any off-throttle boost spikes. No need for 100% OT @ 5500rpm and 0-40% airload.

-with the EFR, read up on the LNF PID thread. It will really help with customizing the ramp up, overboost, and throttle closing once everything else is set. Do this last.

-Tq Mgt Inj Disable table conversation is a good read. Personally, I've found no reason not to leave it stock. No real benefits or penalties either way. It's stock on my racecar with no issues. I think that's more choosing what you like. Good thread to fully read and understand, though.

[codename Bil Doe]

It was great meeting you and refreshing. The people like you are the reason I still occasionally check some boards and comment rather than abandon the interwebs altogether. Your car - AWESOME!

I can't wait to start playing with an LT1 (terrible name resurrection). But, I think I'm more likely to head to the twin turbo V6 as soon as the ATS-V comes out.

[gmtech16450yz]

I knew you'd nail it Bill! Thanks! You're dead on with everything you said. Since I'm not sure what else anyone else could add, I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag already.

This tune is what one of the MAJOR vendors is selling. The owner paid (I'm pretty sure) $350 for this tune. I've tried to tell people that these tunes are horrific and this vendor is a bad person, but of course I'm just a troublemaker. So would it be safe to say you would be shocked that this tune came from a vendor that's well known and trusted? Would you also agree that it's horrendous and shows total lack of understanding of how to tune, not to mention how to tune an LNF? I knew this "tuner" didn't know how to tune, but I figured after doing it for as long as he has, he'd pick up some skills. To be selling tunes like this is to trusting guys to run in their cherished cars is enough to make me sick to my stomach.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

I haven't peeked but if bill found all that...that's disappointing hearing it's a mass marketed item.
the people don't deserve that.

[MikeM173]

I don't have my computer out to look at the file but everything Bill said is accurate. We do things a little different in our tunes but we bounce ideas back and fourth. That is absolutely garbage for someone to sell a tune with that much lack of knowledge. I have not seen a bunch of vendors tunes and am curious gmtech if you'd be willing to PM who he is. I am not the type to spread that info around. If you don't want to I'll completely understand. Spark tables etc are some basic things people should have a general knowledge of prior to charging people. Being a well known tuner you should have a lot more knowledge about op spark and PID tables for sure. Too many people rush to cam changes but have no idea what they are doing and should just stay away from them. Way to many people I see have just copied something off of the internet (gmtechs or BYTs) which if they understood the tables would realize that they were some of your old tables even you admitted you didn't use anymore or BYTs whose I wasn't a huge fan of. Just my opinions.

[T-Man]

If it's who I think it's from, I was paid to recalibrate an LNF that they were unable to get running right...

Very similar changes.... I could be wrong but it looks very similar.

Happy to see you around again John. Many thanks again for your time in the past. Sweet Sky transformation by the way!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

cat cams are factory gmpp cobalt according to my gm file...but only main warms changed as bill said.
so lean at 80%.. some cars are over 6 psi in that range
turned off dynamic knock control.. i only do that to verify positive knock when i have an external listening device otherwise i leave it in as a safety feature.
malt table flat lined... you will never get close to 100% load pe in the 2000 rpm and lower range...that's fibbing the torque modeling factor and i'm sure issues would arise if it ever enabled pe down there.
don't need to command excessive wgdc in lower rpm range it just causes un-necessary solenoid heating.
pressure rpm and other factors limiting boosting potential.
map sensor high range data capped at old value...needs lifting to run 24-25 psi consistently without code throwing
bumped the fuel pressure up to 20 mpa..i have encountered problem lifting it to and above 3k psi, don't know if anyone else tested theirs to see when injectors started having opening issues or not.
this tune must run so bad it causes heating issues cause those fan values got raised up to compensate for something.
the final drive ratio set to 1:1 and then compensated for by vss pulse

i have a suspicion that some of the data was gathered from multiple gmpp tunes from varying platforms and merged into 1 then fibbed up by user lack of knowledge.

Bill covered that tune very well i only put my mentions down per your request. I hope its the stuff you were looking for. There is a ton of failure in there and i hope it helps people save their projects and learn some great info at the same time. Thanks for sharing this with the entire community GMT.

[gmtech16450yz]

If it's who I think it's from, I was paid to recalibrate an LNF that they were unable to get running right...

Very similar changes.... I could be wrong but it looks very similar.

Happy to see you around again John. Many thanks again for your time in the past. Sweet Sky transformation by the way!

Thanks T-Man! (Sorry, I'm old and my memory sucks so I can't remember your name! I know we've talked many times in the past though.) It's cool to see some of you guys are still active in the "Learning and Sharing" here. lol. It's been a long time since we were all trying to figure out this silly Bosch E69! Remember when we could actually ask for a table to be found and added and it actually happened?! They haven't looked at or added any tables to this ECM in years I'm sure. It's certainly one of the most frustrating but rewarding ECM's I've ever tried to tune. So powerful but so hard to actually figure out how to manipulate that power. I am SOOOO happy that you guys took what I wrote about the Optimum Spark tables and ran with it. I think that was the thread where Greg Banish basically told me what an idiot I was. It's awesome to see you guys have also discovered the power of some of those tables regardless of what the nay-sayers said about them either being useless or not meant to be changed. Good job all!

It's not my place to say who the vendor is or who the owner is, at least not at this time. I emailed the owner and gave him a link to this page though so feel free to add more if you other guys get a chance to look at the tune. If you don't look at anything else in the tune, the fact that only 1 of the 4 ign timing, cam timing and Optimum Spark tables has been changed is amazing! Mike, you said it perfectly, the basic lack of tuning knowledge is hard to believe. I've seen some junk tunes, but knowing who's selling tunes like this made me sick. Unfortunately, the average car owner has no idea (and I don't expect them to) what is actually in the tune they're buying. It's just not right and it's not how people should conduct business or treat people in general.

Thanks again for the help guys! I have no idea what the owner will do with this information, but at least he will now know what he paid for.

[gmtech16450yz]

cat cams are factory gmpp cobalt according to my gm file...but only main warms changed as bill said.
so lean at 80%.. some cars are over 6 psi in that range
turned off dynamic knock control.. i only do that to verify positive knock when i have an external listening device otherwise i leave it in as a safety feature.
malt table flat lined... you will never get close to 100% load pe in the 2000 rpm and lower range...that's fibbing the torque modeling factor and i'm sure issues would arise if it ever enabled pe down there.
don't need to command excessive wgdc in lower rpm range it just causes un-necessary solenoid heating.
pressure rpm and other factors limiting boosting potential.
map sensor high range data capped at old value...needs lifting to run 24-25 psi consistently without code throwing
bumped the fuel pressure up to 20 mpa..i have encountered problem lifting it to and above 3k psi, don't know if anyone else tested theirs to see when injectors started having opening issues or not.
this tune must run so bad it causes heating issues cause those fan values got raised up to compensate for something.
the final drive ratio set to 1:1 and then compensated for by vss pulse

i have a suspicion that some of the data was gathered from multiple gmpp tunes from varying platforms and merged into 1 then fibbed up by user lack of knowledge.

Bill covered that tune very well i only put my mentions down per your request. I hope its the stuff you were looking for. There is a ton of failure in there and i hope it helps people save their projects and learn some great info at the same time. Thanks for sharing this with the entire community GMT.

Again, NAILED IT! You guys are AWESOME! Thanks! It's weird, I feel like I'm back among old friends and I forgot what smart, good friends they were! Where's my E47 pioneer friend Tom? I know he'd see the same things you guys all saw. Lots of LNF knowledge here that's for damn sure. Good job guys! I really hope this helps the guy that asked me to look at his tune and log. It's not gonna be easy to decide what to do with this information. Does he ask for his money back? Does he just keep driving the car and not worry about the tune? Does he ask one of you guys to straighten out the tune? (I'm not tuning private parties) Does he tell the vendor all the things wrong in the tune? I actually don't like that idea because all that will happen there is that vendor will just "steal" what you guys have said he's doing wrong here and still not grasp the concepts behind any of it. Again, I have no idea how to proceed, but at least he has the knowledge to make a decision with.

[Iam Broke]

Oh, never fear old friend, I'm still around.

I forgot most of my LNF 'knowledge' and there are plenty of you guys around to carry on.

[MikeM173]

I would definitely ask for my money back. Possibly I would be ok with losing the $100 unlock fee but if the guy is that reputable of a tuner he probably didn't spend that. As for getting a tune after that that is up to the owner and what options he has available. I would however be cautious after that experience.

As for raising fuel pressure I've said it before. DI injectors are designed for certain pressures (I do not have the specs for the stockers) and when outside of that range it will not work correctly. To go from I think its 2250 max to over 3000 I think would be jumping out of the efficiency range. Also their should be no need to change fan settings. If your getting too much heat your tune needs to be adjusted not add more fan to it. Tuning is for efficiency and power is a distant second not the other way around.

[gmtech16450yz]

I would definitely ask for my money back. Possibly I would be ok with losing the $100 unlock fee but if the guy is that reputable of a tuner he probably didn't spend that. As for getting a tune after that that is up to the owner and what options he has available. I would however be cautious after that experience.

As for raising fuel pressure I've said it before. DI injectors are designed for certain pressures (I do not have the specs for the stockers) and when outside of that range it will not work correctly. To go from I think its 2250 max to over 3000 I think would be jumping out of the efficiency range. Also their should be no need to change fan settings. If your getting too much heat your tune needs to be adjusted not add more fan to it. Tuning is for efficiency and power is a distant second not the other way around.

The fuel pressure settings are just another example of the total ignorance going on in this tune. This tuner has changed the max fuel pressure to a number that is higher than it should be, 20MPa or 2900psi. But if you look at the desired table, he only changed that to 15.5MPa or 2250psi. Perfect example of changes that would have been better left STOCK. Tuners in a way are kinda like doctors in that they also should follow the Hippocratic Oath which basically boils down to "Above all else, do no harm".

Amazing. And amazingly disappointing.

[L-N-F'n]

Is this one as bad as the one he sold me?

[MikeM173]

Bumping idle would normally not be an issue but the mere fact that he still has cat warmup on which means idle is still the crappy stock tune their would be no reason to bump it in my opinion.

DAL's. I see what they were doing with them but no. Even with demanding that low of a DAL you still can't use 100% WGDC because it will still command more. It is a desired table not a max table.

Cam Tables. Those changes are a joke and nothing else. Maybe if you were trying to make small changes and learn but that should be discussed with the customer. (Hey I can net you this with all this other stuff but I want to try some stuff with the cam tables. Is that cool with you?) No issues trying new stuff but if you have no clue what your doing you might want to clear it in some way with a customer otherwise buy the damn car if you don't own it and practice on that instead of just throwing darts at a wall.

Injection Angle Table was not changed at all even though Cam changes were made. I Can't imagine the car is very happy with that.

PE is not smooth enough for higher boost and is possibly causing KR to show in a log just like any other table not being smooth will cause KR to show in a log.

Amazing that that car can hit those loads at those rpms to need a COT table like that. Maybe they know something I don't.

All of the spark tables are just shy of a mystery on what they were doing. The spark changes made were that of someone still learning and were not applied to all. But what really gets me is:
IAT Spark and ECT Spark tables are a joke. Did they even read what those tables do and then use common sense on how to apply it to the tune?

Lowered Tip-in Retard even though your asking for more power and lowered the maximum about of retard the computer will pull.

Obviously the tuner read the posts about inj disable and how people were getting the popping sound from zeroing it out and to put all 15's in the last column. Like Bill said stock is just fine. I've never had an issue with it.

He made a lot of Optimum Torque changes but didn't customize any of the tables that go along with changing a table like that which means he doesn't fully understand what that table is doing and how it affects other tables. He just reads torque and things more is better but doesn't realize it'll affect other tables.

Integral Gain. I've seen that table somewhere else before and I can't put my thumb on it. The PID tables are a beast of there own. He could do some reading up on what we've posted about them.

Sever Fault Airload was RAISED!!! This table is used for if a fault happens. Why would you want the car to run normal when it's not right. It is a safety table designed to lower in case of things like LIMP Mode. It even says that.

Raised the minimum fuel pressure but why I have no clue.

Why are the speedometer changes made to change final drive ratio and VSS pulses per mile. Not 100% sure what those changes would do without fully thinking about it but my quick guess is it was made to make it look like the car was increasing speed faster then it really is so when you do a 60-100 log you can say wow look at all the time I dropped off for you. I could be wrong on those changes but everything else is utter crap that someone who watched the guide videos and looked at a gmpp tune should be able to do a million times better.

I skipped a few tables and I definately didn't say everything I was thinking on some of those tables.

[codename Bil Doe]

Good to have king dinosaur back. I knew others would clean up what I didn't look at like or mention like MAP and dynamic knock. I noticed the untouched hom low table which I thought wasn't worth mentioning because so much else is wrong. MikeM has helped me with that table a lot. Great for keeping pulse widths short even with high boost when adjusted carefully.

No need to fire off all my rounds when there are so many other gunslingers backing each other up. You walked into the wrong town with that tune, partna!

[codename Bil Doe]

I would definitely ask for my money back. Possibly I would be ok with losing the $100 unlock fee but if the guy is that reputable of a tuner he probably didn't spend that. As for getting a tune after that that is up to the owner and what options he has available. I would however be cautious after that experience.

As for raising fuel pressure I've said it before. DI injectors are designed for certain pressures (I do not have the specs for the stockers) and when outside of that range it will not work correctly. To go from I think its 2250 max to over 3000 I think would be jumping out of the efficiency range. Also their should be no need to change fan settings. If your getting too much heat your tune needs to be adjusted not add more fan to it. Tuning is for efficiency and power is a distant second not the other way around.

Had to respond to this because they're two really good points that I don't think have been really mentioned. Mike really nailed it with both points. There is an efficiency range to injectors (injectors have duty cycles for a reason). Can't just run them at 52,000 psi because more is better.

Really good point on the fans. If you need more fan to keep the car cool you're doing something VERY wrong. Ecotecs hate sitting, but when moving it doesn't matter if you're cruising on the freeway or WOT on track. These engines run cool. If not, you're doing it wrong! The highest temp I've ever seen on track is 216° running WOT for a 40 minute sprint race at 23psi. Usually I'm running 207-210°.

[MikeM173]

I haven't been posting much and for no other reason then work. When I grab my computer it's for tuning the customers I have. I also spend a lot of time on texts helping out or on Facebook answering questions. Some place is bound to get lacked on from my end. I try to keep up with here because I think it's tge most important place for people to learn but I can't ignore the others. The VSS changes would piss me off if I bought a tune like that. Unless I made changes to the wheel size and it was different rotations but I'll be honest I've never dabbled with that table so it'd be a quick learn I'd have to do.