Tuning Issues with LSJ Ariel Atom on E85

[Atom75]

Last year, I towed my Ariel Atom to a well known LSJ tuner so that they could dyno tune it after I rebuilt and modified the engine. The power turned out ok, but there are driveablity issues and other problems with it. They spent very little time on it, so I'm not confident in the work they did. I attached the dyno chart.

I purchased HP Tuners Pro so that I could look at the program, record data, and hopefully solve my issues.

Here are the issues I'm having:
-Hunting idle, especially with a cold engine. Tried raising the target idle, but it's not able to reach the target RPM.
-Poor driveability at partial throttle/cruising. Car surges/bucks.
-Supercharger bypass valve opens with 2.9" pulley which drops the boost to <10psi. The 3.1" pulley works ok and makes about 16psi.
-The injector tables aren't close to the ones provided by Injector Dynamics for the LSJ.

Here are the engine mods I have:
Custom 3" intake
3" MAF tube
LS4 throttle body
9.5:1 forged pistons
Head with upgraded valves, springs, cams, solid lifters
ID1000 injectors
Dual-pass endplate
Hoop mounted heat exchanger for intercooler
TVS blower with 3.1" pulley
E85 fuel

Are these issues that can be fixed with minor adjustments to the tune, or do I need to start over? Am I better off finding another company to tune it for me?

Thanks.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

the offset voltage tables provided by ID need to be halved before they are entered.
if you need to reset the injector data it is going to throw the rest of your tune off. the only way to verify the injector data is correct is to perform a fuel shift test.
Fuel shift test requirements:
1) force speed density mode with maf completely disabled
2) all trq limitations need to be removed so they dont effect fueling
3) cat overtemp and piston protection must be removed
4) any multiplier tables must be neutralized

the goal is turn every modified and correrction table off so it runs strictly off the base ve table thats programmed in.

5) with the ve table tuned you can add 10% of fuel to the entire ve table
6) review logs and if there are any spots that are not removing the 10% added then those spots need injector offset calibration adjustments.

once you made the offset changes and the 10% added is being removed as 10% then you can move back to the base ve table without the added 10% fuel
since data chenged your multipliers and modifiers will change as well and those will need to be accounterd for by tuning those tables over as well.
the only problem with injector adjustments is they are the first adjustment that should be made...if its wrong everythign else changes...except if your running a stock ignition table you would be able to transfer that over as well. as they say "garbage in = garbage out"

[Atom75]

These are the two spreadsheets I have for the ID1000 injectors. One is supposed to be specifically for the LSJ. You are saying these values need to be halved? I'll verify how the values in my tune compare when I get home.

Also, the ECU I am using was originally tuned to run on speed density only. It came from a car with the exact same engine mods, so I used it just to get it running. When I had the car dyno tuned, the tuner changed it to run off the MAF. I don't know if that has any impact on the problems I'm having. The car idled better with the original tune.

[Atom75]

Here's my tune file. Looks pretty far off from the ID tables. How can I go about getting it fixed? Can someone recommend a good company to work on the tuning?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

setup is like so for id1000 and e85....everything in the fueling tab is setup per id's recommendations. im glad they gave you the lsj specific file because you have to interpolate the other data to make it work.
now my question to you is did you convert to boost regulated return fuel system when you upgraded to the id100's or did you leave it as stock return-less style? return fuel requires a different setup all together so its important to know.

members reading your thread can better help you find a company if we have a general location like major city and state.

[Speedytec]

Your idle and driveability problems are most likely due to wrong offsett tables specific for the LSJ ecu, as said above. I trying to solve the same issues with my Opel Speedster/VX220 that runs a Harropped LSJ...
Lwrs10 did some extensive injector settings testing our the LSJ ecu, but he is not often around here anymore. (Search for "injector basics 101"...)

[cobaltssoverbooster]

i have direct lines to him...if the struggle is bad enough i might be able to convince a temporary return. hes been very busy with family lately
if thats the case just get as much knowledge as possible before hand so his return time is optimized for both parties please.

[Atom75]

setup is like so for id1000 and e85....everything in the fueling tab is setup per id's recommendations. im glad they gave you the lsj specific file because you have to interpolate the other data to make it work.
now my question to you is did you convert to boost regulated return fuel system when you upgraded to the id100's or did you leave it as stock return-less style? return fuel requires a different setup all together so its important to know.

members reading your thread can better help you find a company if we have a general location like major city and state.

I have the stock return-less fueling system.

The file you posted looks more like I would expect. Looks like I need someone to start over on mine.

I added my location to my profile.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

in short yes i believe you are going to need to be re worked entirely. im sorry that shop didn't properly help you by quick cutting everything down to a wot and half baked ve adjustment. if you go to a shop and they ask you for your injectors, mod list, fuel pressure, reasonable power gain and tell you that its going to take the better part of a day and possibly some town driving to verify data, thats how you know you found a shop above the feared image of dyno shops. i dont spread names of bad shops but to say there are a few ruining the image for the rest of them would be an understatement. keep an open mind to driving out of your way to find a shop that best fits what you are looking for in tuning services.

if you cant find a shop quickly let me know and i can try to stir up some extra interests in other places as well to help you get some places to check out.

[Atom75]

I spent a day towing the car to this shop and back. I don't mind doing it again to another shop if I know they will do it right. I know there are some good shops around, but few that specialize in LSJs.

I also have access to a local dyno, so I could record the data and send it to a tuner farther away.

[Speedytec]

@CobaltS; Had send you a PM about that, but I understand that he now has far more important issues going on with his family...

My specific questions to him relate to the edited 1st posting he did here http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...r-basic-how-to
He describes a few tries he did to properly tune the LSJ with bigger injectors and halving the offset tables was one of them. But that created some idle and coastdown issues that are exaggerated on our light cars. He mentions that the voltage multiplier trick for the max IFR value does not work and scaling the tune brings other issues due to the lack of mapped out LSJ tables in HPT...

I'm now on the Bosch dual spray EV14's and digged up the offsetts that I think originate from Lwrs10, but still with some driveability issues that we need to tune out and do that 10% check. (thxs for the description to do that in VE-only mode with all tables off)

(2.0LSJ with a Powell "GMR-copy" head, ZZP st2 cams, Harrop 80mm and Bosch 60lbsEV14 on a return style system. Euro 98 RON fuel, that's Super unleaded in the US. My location is Netherlands, Europe and no experienced LSJ-HPT tuner in a few thousand miles around. ;-) )

[cobaltssoverbooster]

the ID injector tables he got dont need to be halved because we have risen that issue to ID and they supply a corrected data file just for us. Thats what the great customer service of ID gets you.
as for the other injectors i have a set of files for the ev series injectors with the correct spray nozzles designed for dual valve close range spray operation. they are from lwrs adn they get you in the 9-11% range when offset testing normally depending on the cars internal condotion and parts. ive been told i may share that info but i will only share by email so if its needed i would like to talk through pm before i just go throwing it out to everyone.

[Speedytec]

I did a quick comparison of some values in both the ID1000-for-LSJ file and the other ID1000 GM-Characterization-Tables file posted here, but these seem to have the same offset values. Only the LSJ sheet is converted to the LSJ specific VAC pressures, but not the "halved GM offset values" that are said to be needed for the LSJ ecu...

(I don't have these ID1000's, but only trying to understand the deeper logic behind the LSJ ecu and this conflicting info confuses me a lot... :/ PM-ed you )

[cobaltssoverbooster]

I should have used the name of the table but only the injector vs volt vs vac gets halved

[Atom75]

The example ID1000 E85 tune uses the values from the ID LSJ spreadsheet. Does whether or not you halve the values depend on if the flow rate modifier is set to 1.0 or 2.0? It's set to 1.0 in my tune, but the ID spreadsheet has it as 2.0.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

You multiply the flow rate by the modifier to get the real flow rate. The max flow for the flow rate alone is 63.5 lbhr. So leaving it as 1 tells the injectors there is no modifications to flow rate so you are telling the ecu it has small injectors by about half of what id reccomended

[Atom75]

I'm still trying to figure out what would be the best way to go about fixing the tune.

How difficult would it be for me to get it running with ID's injector settings before taking it to a tuner? Am I better off changing the settings that should be "standard" before taking it to a tuner to dial in the variable settings?

Any specific tuning company recommendations would be appreciated.

[Atom75]

Here's a scan file of idle and WOT in 2nd gear. Are there any other parameters I need to be recording? Any thoughts on the scan?

[Speedytec]

You can dial in the tune yourself in the closed loop idle and low load settings with fuel trim logging. There are several good guides to talk you through this.
One comment; The LS4 TB can be difficult to get right, so maybe first dial your in the tune with the stock TB and once running weel change to the bigger LS4

[f4tal]

Pics of said Atom?
I love those things and they are a rare site! Goodluck with the tuning side. I'm a noob LNF tuner so i'm zero help.