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Thread: Need Help Taming My 1-2 Low Speed, Light Throttle Shift

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Need Help Taming My 1-2 Low Speed, Light Throttle Shift

    Hi Guys,

    I would like suggestions for taming my 1-2 Low Speed, Light Throttle Shift.

    You can see the details of my transmission and vehicle in my signature Blog Link.

    The short of it is a 2005 5.3 L33 with Magnuson Radix Supercharger, with a 4L60E converted to a 4L65E with a Sonnax Performance Pack and Circle-D Stock Stall Converter.

    I have been through money pit hardware attempts to correct this. Sonnax believes its a Slide Bump, The Trans Shop guys don't have much to say on that thinking its a plain old too firm shift. Long story. Both have been very supportive but I am out of funds to do tear down and try experimentation's.

    So............... not being an experienced or seasoned Tuner especially in the Trans department, I would like to try some tweaks if there are any that do not threaten the rest of the system.

    What I have is a light throttle crack position from a dead stop from 0- to 2500 or so RPM back slapper from 1st to 2nd gear. Any heavier on the throttle position and the shift gets more acceptable.

    I know too low on pressures and too much shift time cause wear issues but at such a low load can we calm this down with out fear?

    What would you do in my situation?

    Thanks.
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    was the trans built with 4l65 components. the extra clutch disk, heavy duty springs, or was it just the sonax kit. the 4l60 already is known for light throttle harsh shifts, that gm issued 2nd accumulator spring to fix, if its a built trans and has the wide 2-4 band it will shift hard under light throttle. you can change shift pressure based on torque, i would not change shift time very much, unless you shortened the time previously, and want to change it back. your best bet is play with shift pressures under torque and trans temperatures.
    Michael Bray
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  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Thanks,

    Yes the extra clutch disc, hardened output shaft, planetary set and the like plus the Sonnax kit. All the frictions were performance after market replacements, and a yes to the wide 2-4 band.

    Here is my current Temp vs. Torque table. Based on my description what increments would you start with?

    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    -10.0 -8.0 -6.0 -4.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0
    -8.0 -6.0 -4.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0
    -6.0 -4.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0
    -4.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 7.0 8.0
    -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 7.0 8.0 9.0 10.0

    copy and paste those into graph, should pull alot out under light throttle, but still give you more under load, and when hot
    you could pull more out in left columns that is just an estimate of where I would start. you can add more or less based on feel. You just have to remember that these transmissions are known to randomly give hard shifts so dont go crazy changing a lot of variables just because you felt one hard bump. with these you have to take an average of shifts. try some pressure numbers that feel right at the moment. then drive for a week, and see how it feels. dont try to change after every drive as it will drive you crazy.
    Michael Bray
    Rusty Knuckle Garage
    Slidell, Louisiana
    20yr Master Tech.
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  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Thanks, Ill try it in a few days and get back..
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    I loaded it and tried it and I thinks it better as it warms up. I need to just drive it to work tomorrow and relax to see what it does.
    When I drive it the thing will get my attention so if its better I'll know it.
    I am working hard hours, 11AM to 7:30 PM. Cannot do any errands if you know what I mean.

    But from the little jaunt I did this PM just to see if it does not choke on the changes tells me I need to get it up to full temps.

    I got the trans temp up to 110°F and the medium seems better but the slower speed and low torque range may need help.

    Can you build me a config to scan with that would help you help me?

    Thanks!
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    well when it comes to the 4l60-e it is hard to build anything that would accurately monitor and record the shifts of the trans. The transmission does not have a input sensor, so it relies on the crank sensor for in put speed, which is terribly unrealistic because it cannot take into account torque converter slip speed. this is on reason the shifts are harsh at times and soft at others, because realistically the pcm never really knows where the trans is between shifts. it just simply looks for an rpm drop between shifts. this is highly exaggerated with a stall converter. The later transmissions gm installed a input housing speed sensor to the pump housing much like the 4l80e has. this greatly improved shift feel. So the short of it is, honestly I think everything done to the unit valve body wise was bringing you in the opposite direction of where "you" wanted the transmission to go. These items are designed to increase longevity, of the unit, at the expense of feel. To back it down with opening the unit, you are just going to have to play with pressures and shift speeds. but I would not get drastic. Shifting the trans early will help a little as with lower engine rpm, there will be less fluid pressure at the pump, and gradually pulling shift pressures at low rpm will lesson the shift feel. try changing shift speed 1 mile an hour at a time, and see how if feels. if you get something close, then try subtracting shift pressure in the modifier tables by say 5% at a time. again find a good point with changes. then drive for a week and see if it is liveable. Will it ever feel like it did stock, no all the valve body changes will not allow that. those shift improver kits are designed to increase shift pressures mechanically. you just have to try and back them down electronically. To get as close to stock as possible, your commanded pressures are going to have to be way lower than stock, because you pcm is assuming that the trans is stock. you have increased the pressures with boost valves, and springs, which the pcm has no way of knowing. again your case is not the typical case. most people either want the feel, or just live with it because they know in long run the trans life is extended. For example my daily driver 2001 tahoe. I have installed a fuel mileage tune, which includes lower shift points and an increase in shift pressure. To get the trans where it and me are both happy, I know I flashed atleast 10 different tunes over 3 months just on the tune aspect, but I am very picking. I am in my tahoe 3-4 hours daily, so comfort is very important to me, as I assume to you. Will just take some time, trials, and errors.
    Michael Bray
    Rusty Knuckle Garage
    Slidell, Louisiana
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  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Thanks,

    Drove it today and when she heats up she is fine in all but the low speed 1-2's. Its worse when cold and still has a pop when heated. We are talking the 1-2 when pulling from a light in traffic shifting to 2nd at about the slowest speed possible.
    Anything a little faster and she is much improved.

    So I'm guessing to back everything by 2 digits in the 0/40/80 ft.lbs columns? You tell me?

    Thanks
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    -14.0 -12.0 -9.0 -7.0 -5.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0
    -12.0 -9.0 -7.0 -5.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0
    -9.0 -7.0 -5.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0
    -7.0 -5.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 7.0 8.0
    -5.0 -2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 7.0 8.0 9.0 10.0

    try these

    I went between -4 and -2 from lowest temps and throttle, scaling out trying to grab the worst feel out. if you think it might need more, feel free to subtract more, just remember to scale it out so there isn't any sharp drop points
    Michael Bray
    Rusty Knuckle Garage
    Slidell, Louisiana
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  10. #10
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    0/40/80 columns are where you want to focus, you just have to scale it out, you can let the hptuners software scale it, but I like to transition myself, instead of letting the software guess
    Michael Bray
    Rusty Knuckle Garage
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  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Thanks, Will try it out Satuday.
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  12. #12
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    Are your base shift pressures still stock? If you can't get it to where you need through tuning, you may have to swap out the 1-2 accumulator spring that came with the Sonnax kit, and put your stock one back in.

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Yes,

    I was advised by Mr. Nader @ Sonnax the kit was to run stock pressures.

    Here is what we (Sonnax and the Shop I use) have been dealing with.

    There are two kinds of rude 1-2 shifts common to this trans. A harsh 1-2 shift (Repeats every time), and what the Sonnax engineer describes to be a slide-bump (does not repeat as reliably or is as common as a harsh 1-2).

    I put up with it by knowing how much to wind out 1st to avoid it until my stock converter failed. But sometimes traffic and such would not let me perform this work through. So while replacing it with a Circle-D stock stall unit I decided to go after the slide bump as that is how she behaved.

    Sonnax sent springs for the 1-2 "Regulator" - not to be confused with the "Accumulator" springs. My shop was to communicate with Sonnax on which rate spring was found in the regulator and exchange it with a Sonnax recommended replacement.

    After doing this the symptoms changed from a slide-bump to a harsh shift repeating reliably and lessening a little when fully heated but no by much.

    My wallet has me unable to open her back up so I am looking for a tuning tweak to hold me until I can get her opened up again and work with the accumulator spring.

    A slide bump is actually a little slip before it bumps in.

    So far with the help I'm getting here I am seeing relief.

    My Shop and Mr. Nader have been great and at times demonstrated great patience with me.

    Right now its the slow speed, very light throttle that need the work. The 1st recommendation I received here has shown noticeable improvements above that. Looking forward to trying the 2nd one in the AM.

    Thanks!
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  14. #14
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    Good luck man, I hope that fixes it. Luckily, if you do need to change out anything with the accumulators, you only have to drop the pan and valve body. Something you should be able to do quickly on your own.

  15. #15
    You can also add a little time in the desired shift time vs. torque 1>2 table. Only add it in the lower torque cells. Sometimes this will tame the shift enough at lower speeds.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2therock View Post
    Thanks,

    Yes the extra clutch disc, hardened output shaft, planetary set and the like plus the Sonnax kit. All the frictions were performance after market replacements, and a yes to the wide 2-4 band.

    Here is my current Temp vs. Torque table. Based on my description what increments would you start with?
    2therock, Mate that table needs work dude, aint anywhere near the correct pressure's it should be and needs to be, the most negative number should be approx. -6 not anymore than -6 , -14 way too negative mate if you need some help with pressures etc give me a pm cheers Bret ULTIMATE LSX TUNING
    Last edited by THE CHAD; 06-01-2014 at 07:36 AM.

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner 2therock's Avatar
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    Well, Never mind guys. I lost 3rd gear today in a romp session. 30k miles of abuse.
    I mashed it down shifting into 2nd I wound her out and when she went to 3rd there was nothing there. I guess she seen this and attempted to go back to 2nd and try again but its done.

    We are going in. Dropping her off Friday.
    2013 Dodge Charger R/T Plus, Stock 5.7L, Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1, 3.25" Pulley, 450-HP 459-TQ.
    Corsa Sport CatBack, 3.06:1 Wavetrac, Dual Fans, 1-7/16 Radiator, Mopar Oil Cooler
    2005 Radix'd Silverado L33 5.3 ECSB Z71 @ 387-HP 395-TQ

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=2therock;352548]Well, Never mind guys. I lost 3rd gear today in a romp session. 30k miles of abuse.
    I mashed it down shifting into 2nd I wound her out and when she went to 3rd there was nothing there. I guess she seen this and attempted to go back to 2nd and try again but its done.

    We are going in. Dropping her off Friday.[/QUOTE
    2therock sorry to hear that mate, if you need any programming help with the trans tune etc give me a pm mate cheers BRET ULTIMATE LSX TUNING

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2therock View Post
    Well, Never mind guys. I lost 3rd gear today in a romp session. 30k miles of abuse.
    I mashed it down shifting into 2nd I wound her out and when she went to 3rd there was nothing there. I guess she seen this and attempted to go back to 2nd and try again but its done.

    We are going in. Dropping her off Friday.
    Sorry to hear that man. Unfortunately, 3-4 clutches are a weak point on that unit. Hopefully you just burnt them up, and didn't damage much else. Down the road, you may want to consider swapping to a 4L80.