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Thread: LNF LHU LSJ "race" cam timing

  1. #1

    LNF LHU "race" cam timing

    I labeled this as all three engines for easy searching and because it should be applicable to all VVT. Threads on cam timing are well-documented. I did the standard tuning months ago after reading those threads. But, yesterday a though crossed my mind. It is known that overlap at cruise rpm is used to increase gas mileage. Power gains were found while maintaining good gas mileage by decreasing the overlap. Here's where my thoughts came in.

    For autox, drags, and road racing, who cares about mileage? Irrelevant. In that case, reducing overlap should increase midrange power. This thought had already occurred to MikeM awhile ago I guess while I was busy pondering other parts of the LNF.

    My methods of testing are similar to what others posted on here. But, I use a method that gives me the most repeatability. I see comparisons of 60-100 times, but my shift points are still 6-6.25k rpm. For this reason, I floor it at 58-60mph and measure 63-83mph times. This ensures a steady-state condition whereby the only difference may be the flatness of the road (lifting is at 85mph). All done on my local closed Mexican highway with professional driver, of course. I average several pulls to determine whether or not changes are good or bad. I have tested this way for months for comparisons. So, I know results are reasonably accurate.

    As a refresher, here are the stock cam tables (09 GXP, warm cam tables):

    stock cam timing.png

    Nice, clean, and smooth because GM engineer.

    Here is what my final tune was based off of the increased midrange torque versus good gas mileage. This took me a couple months of tuning to get around to with testing:

    tuned cam timing.png

    Pretty typical adjustments which can be reached after reading through the cam timing threads.

    Finally, here is what I tested yesterday. Flattened the midrange overlap 'hump' on both profiles to focus solely on power gains:

    race cam timing.png

    To guarantee that I wasn't cheating with any downhill runs, I made absolutely sure that all four pulls were on slight inclines or better. I used inclines only if they were clearly visible as uphill. This was on my 91 octane tune (11° peak timing). Results on my two best pulls showed equal 63-83mph times as my 100 octane tune (18° peak timing). In time, the gains were 0.2-0.3sec on slight inclines. Worst two pulls were 0.1sec improvements with steeper inclines and/or turns.

    0.2sec on a slight incline in a 20mph window is a pretty significant gain. It definitely didn't feel faster. Just smoother. On a gas mileage note, my cruise mpg didn't suffer significantly, though I did have to recalibrate to a new rpm/speed at which my mileage was best. You can feel that the car doesn't freewheel as much when lifting.

    Something people may want to explore on tunes for the track versus just all-around. I'll do more testing this weekend to reaffirm what I've found so far. Thoughts and comments welcome.
    Last edited by codename Bil Doe; 05-29-2014 at 01:50 PM.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner Japeatr's Avatar
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    Bill, good stuff

    you list LSJ although they do not have variable valve timing

    384whp/303wtq
    Built 2.0LSJ: TVS w/2.6, 1000cc, Stage 2 cams, custom fuel system, E85, Dual Pass, 3"intake, 3" Catless exhaust, CIA midlength Header

  3. #3
    Then screw those lower class people! Let them eat LNF

    edit: fixed.

  4. #4
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    Haha exactly.

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    lower class lol i prefer the lsj because i can make more power cheaper in the long run. for a street car yes the lnf is damn hard to beat and i would recommend it to almost anyone.
    in short they both have their places
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    so ats ltg should be applicable.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  7. #7
    All VVT turbo welcome.

  8. #8
    Update: I got to play with a 2011 GT500 on a closed course freeway with professional drivers today from a 65mph roll. GT500 was in 4th gear. I could pull a little in 3rd and hold in 4th to 100. I was running my 91 octane tune with 11* peak timing. I suggest giving this a try.

  9. #9
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    Keep in mind that I'm still a tuner in training but I've been playing with your race cam tables and wanted to thank you for sharing. Being the tuner in training that I am, I spent well over an hour working my cam tables to mimick what you posted and got to load the tune this morning and go for a few test spins on a deserted road. I typically test 60 to 100mph times and made 3 runs on the same section of road and have shaved 0.3 seconds off of the worst run and 0.5 seconds off of the best one.

    You're right about the feeling as it didn't "feel" faster - it felt nice and smooth. My gut feeling was that there was no difference but the log showed the gains that I would say are more than modest. Needless to say, I'm very happy to have stumbled onto this forum and learn what I have from you and the rest of the LNF group here. I hope to be able to contribute some information benefecial to others on my own here someday.

    I ended up buying the Sky after owning a replica of a 1956 Porsche Speedster for over 11 years. The car was VW powered by a 2276 that was turbocharged (T04e) and fuel injected with crank fired ignition all controlled by a Megasquirt controller and ran circles around just about everything on the street. My wife and I enjoyed the car most of the time but got tired of it last year when the temps hovered above 100 for 3 months straight. It had no AC or heat, no seat belts, no air bags, etc... I really hated getting rid of the car and thought that I would miss it too much but I really haven't since the Sky gives similar performance and has all of the creature comforts to boot.

    Thanks again!

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    Do you happen to have these in table form so I could look at em? The 3D just confuses my old brain.

  11. #11
    All my posts are how to's not what to avoid "tuner shops" from copy pasting. Has happened to couple of the Jedi masters before me who spread their knowledge. Glad to teach people how based off of what I've learned.

  12. #12
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    Understood. I'll take a longer peek at em and see what questions I come up with. I started messing with them the other night, just barely. Thanks for all the discovering you do!

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    Wow! You really added a ton of timing in the low load zones, didn't you?

  14. #14
    Yes. The biggest benefit will be eliminating the overlap hump. But, don't flatten it out completely. Some overlap helps the motor pull to redline.

  15. #15
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    So basically, what the middle of the table shows that big dip, just smooth that out?

  16. #16
    Yes. Compare the attached jpg. If you want a good experiment, make two. The first one take most of it away and leave a little hump to see the difference. The next make it totally flat. You should feel the engine run rougher on the flat one and struggle to pull to redline. There is a balance between too much overlap and not enough.

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    Right on, I am comparing mine to your jpg, it's tough to get it that smooth, but I think I am on my way.

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    How does this work with random knock? I have an issue with some random, seemingly phantom, knock. Which I assume is part of the ECU issue you and I are concluding I have...

  19. #19
    The more tables you hand smooth the more random kr you will eliminate. CSSOB I guess said that the 07's have a bunch of false knock coded in. That's typical of first year models. GM probably ties turn signal voltage surge to kr

  20. #20
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    Yeah, I remember that from tuning my Cobalt back in the day when there were 5 tables to tune (exaggerated). This car shows a TON of knock, so I turned off the knock sensors. I feel on E85 that I know safe limits and will not need them. And I know what real knock sounds like. My Cobalt was the same way, it was an 08 and had a ton of knock on it. Wish I could flash an 08 base tune to the car...