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Thread: Sharing my bad, popping race tunes - looking for some direction

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner Boost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    Things that cause Lambda (AFR) to be all over the place including running rich is your physical setup. But Mike it has to be tuning. I know I know but what people don't realize or forget to think about is sensor locations. The motor senses stuff but then reacts to it but if the other sensors don't see it in the same timeframe they are expecting to see it in then it's compensating for something that isn't there yet or something that has already passed. Most commonly seen with intake tubes where the MAF sensor has moved to a further location.
    My setups is as follows: ZZP intake with no cold air box right now - had to use a 2012 Regal MAF sensor as it is the only one that fits into the slot of ZZP intake tube. Of course I had to swap around the wires on the sensor so the connector pin out would be correct. So I replaced my big stock Verano sensor with a small Regal one. As you can imagine, the car did not run at all until I copied and pasted the MAF calibration table from a Regal file, then disable many DTCs. I am sure this is causing a lot of issues but it is the only way to get a high quality intake onto this thing. I must tune it smooth and reliable eventually, I believe it is possible with HPT. Also I am running a TurboSmart BPV to replace the ugly stock bypass valve on the turbocharger that is plastic with a rubber diaphragm and may fail under high boost. In addition I have full custom exhaust: again a Regal ZZP dowpipe with only 1 bung and the latest PLX wideband in it. Then a 3" straight pipe with one large Magnaflow resonator for sound and just two of the factory mufflers remaining in the back with factory tips. So all cats have been eliminated (in total the pre-cat in stock dowpipe, stock resonator, main cat, and one of the 3 factory mufflers all gone). Other than that the car is on Mickey Thompson ET Street drag radials mounted on the factory 18" wheels. ECM / TCM are tuned with HPT. I had EFILive and was able to get pretty far with only engine support, but my trans. was hurting so I bought HPT to firm the shifts and raise line pressures. Once I found out how much more can be done in the engine as well, I never looked back. I run 93 octane pump premium gasoline all the time, usually from Chevron or Shell. And I change my engine oil about every 2000 miles with Pennzoil Ultra Class Synthetic (5w30 when available or 0w40) and filter of course. And I add some bottles of off the shelf octane booster every now and then, and Seafoam once in a while (will do a lot more now based on this thread). Car has 18k miles now and is daily driven. So there is my complete setup, my intake and down pipe are both perfect fitting high quality ZZP parts specific for LHU, and the sensors are good condition and exactly where ZZP placed them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    Tuning wise that would cause it would be how smooth everything is and how you have them working together. If you have a huge change the car jumps through hoops trying to accommodate for that and it can cause Lambda to be all over (usually runs way rich and then on it's way back to commanded it can run slightly lean until it levels out at commanded).
    Yes, I am desperate to eventually have everything very smooth and balanced. My car does have a lot of trouble with transitions. I thought I could move up the power and then smooth it out, but I must revise my whole strategy. I am all ears and will absorb any wisdom shared as a sponge. Truth is we race every day here and I am able to win, and my car hasn't blown up yet. But I know it will, and it could run a lot better too. That's why I am here!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post

    Their is actually a small period where I command .91 (the car actually demands .90) and my car runs flawlessly. I would not be concerned with .88 if I were you. My high rpm lambda is actually .88
    I REALLY don't want my car to run lean! I don't understand why it does, several things that are throwing me off I will post about later. My goal TODAY is to try to command and maintain the AFR in PE you are suggestion here.
    Last edited by Boost; 04-26-2014 at 09:28 AM.
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by noorjSS View Post
    Knock events of 5-7 degrees at WOT is a great way to kill a motor. Are you sure your running 93? It's either bad gas, terrible plugs, crazy high IATs, or a tremendous amount of timing.
    Fair assumptions all, let me clarify. Yes I am aware knock is brutal, and really regret that it's occurring so bad and so often. Yes, being a GM technician I saw the Top Tier Fuel bulletin and use strictly the best quality 93 octane premium fuel I can find from name brand gas stations. I prefer Chevron and often use Shell. I also almost never dip below 1/4 tank and try not to fuel in or after the rain.

    My spark plugs were replaced recently, reading from the LNF threads on this forum I went with Autolite Iridium one heat range colder than stock, and gapped to .29. They are XP 5263s, I think ZZP has recommended them at some point. They are properly installed and all.

    Crazy high IATs - yes this one is very true sadly. I am here in Miami with 90+ degree heat and crazy humidity and traffic everywhere. Also, I have no cold air box built yet so it is drawing very hot air from the engine bay. I have seen IATs shoot up from 110 to 150 in one pull. I may even be over boosting the turbo which of course contributes to hell temperatures. And with my lean conditions you observed and all...

    The timing may be too high. On my Cruze I dropped it big time and running 20+ PSI boost daily on a pea sized Honeywell/Garrett I have no knock for 40,000 miles. I am just accustomed to messing with timing last after dialing in AFR - obviously I failed miserably at that. Please let me know if you can and are willing where I must drop timing immediately. I know peak torque has to be seriously retarded and I need advance for good idle (my experiences).
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    NoorjSS it's not necessarily those things. 7 degrees of knock is extreme yes but it's not always caused by those things specifically. Lots of things can cause knock when tuning other then those things such as not having smooth transitions, running rich in some cases (yes you read that correctly, sometimes adding timing and leaning it out can actually fix this, though at WOT and 93 this shouldn't be the case), other tables that affect smooth flow and driveability, etc. Also if the LHU is anything like the LNF you can also get lots of false knock (never seen that high) and you would just need to adjust the knock sensors. I need to grab my computer and make it home so I can actually view peoples tunes for real help.
    Yes I am aware of "rich knock" and it is much less hurtful. The mic. can pic up the event and register is as KR, happens often. But when it does the value is minimal and if feels like a gentle burble or even big pop. The huge jerking puffing hesitations I know are real nasty knock - and honestly while I am SUPER glad it does, I am not sure why my car still runs, and runs good at that.

    One time I was breaking up at the track and I leaned it out and it went smooth and faster than ever. So very good point and thank you for saying it. These are two separate things though.
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dertobi View Post
    hi looked at your file "C"...
    i think you ar are brave man running that thing freakin' lean like that and having all COT and TOT disabled.
    your desired PE lambda(sorry i am german ) is at 0.93 this is AFR 13.6!... what is your exact wideband reading?
    on my LHU i am running it at straight 0.83 which works fine w/o any knock. had the car on the dyno last week, 512NM/349HP (Engine), I tested alot and also hat to find out the hard way that the engine as long as it is stock can not take more or you rods will blow the block. (remember german autobahn is a bit different than in the US , i run it 160mph+ nearly every day, and not pulling it gear1,2,3 until reaching the speedlimit :P )

    also all this trq mangement diabled and the max knock airmass table maxed out is a graet way to blow the engine.
    raising the driver demand this high and maxxing the torque tables and conclusively lowering PE enrichment torque etc. is also senseless for fuel consumption, the car will be in PE everytime, even if not needed.

    cheers tobi
    Hi Tobi,

    I wonder if we exchanged e-mails a long time ago perhaps? Maybe different person. Before I started my own tuning I was desperately seeking help from Germany and while I found some people nothing really came through. You guys and the LNF guys are the ONLY ones that know anything about this engine. Again, I don't want to run lean! On the wideband which has been verified accurate by the dyno's sniffer I am always shooting for 11.9-12.4 or so. When I see leaner, I try to adjust. The problem is, I am running tunes as rich as 10.5 and still all the sudden it will pop huge with real knock. I will try your .83! Just type it into commanded PE? Because I see some really weird value in there, again I will post about this a little later. Congrats on your results! My goal is to make 300 wheel horsepower and I am confident the engine can handle it. But unfortunately at this rate I am going to blow up with 200 hp...
    We are drag racers here and I most definitely am one. So the 1,2,3 is an absolute necessity - but we don't stop there. Trouble is my 3rd gear and up is weak - I am only able to kick the crap out of everyone in the 1/8th mile due to the ratio of the first two gears on this car and very high torque. I love high speed challenges and the car sometimes feels good but knocks often and loses to anything serious right now. This why I am here.

    What is COT and TOT?

    I though long and hard about disabling torque management. While some advised it hoping tuning would be more simple and max performance available, I know it is dangerous. However I still feel the tune could be perfected to accomplish max power. Does TM need to be lowered to accomplish this?

    The knock airmass table is maxed out because I went through a long period where the throttle refused to stay open. I finally made a huge breakthrough and maxed out the grams to 2000 in the other software. This worked really good. If I should lower the knock airmass, I will do it immediately! To what value? My throttle blade must not close though when I am WOT.

    Yes fuel economy has suffered significantly because of unneeded PE. However I read somewhere to start tuning like that to protect the engine. I was able to remove some low RPM knock by using those silly settings. If I can safely improve it, I will. But I must not knock.

    Thank you all so much! I patiently and anxiously await additional replies and ready to make changes immediately.
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  5. #25
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    I plan on reading a bit of what you put and commenting on it then read some more so if reading this seams off that is why. I have never tried tuning your cold air setup with using a different maf wired in. You may be better off running mafless but I wouldn't know without actually seeing your logs and tune. (I really need to be by my computer and my WiFi).

    I know your excited to run those drag radials but I would highly recommend tuning with regular street tires amd waiting until you have the tune basically finished prior to tuning on tires that get an extremely lower amount of mileage on them.

    Please don't use the octane booster. If you need more info just google search. I'm sure their is enough info out there.

    Curious why your using 0w40 oil?

    As for racing please just stop. If your car is not running smooth then just stop. You shouldn't be dogging on your car at all when your not 100% sure on your tune. Not trying to be rude just simply saying stop.

    Do not command a lambda of .91. I do for my setup and I am not recommending it for you. Stick with .88. It'll be a safe lambda for you. If you want to error on the side of caution more .86 is fine. I can't comment too much on your lambda because I haven't seen it. Going mafless in some cases I've tuned has cleared up some problems for lambda due to the intake tube design causing problems. I will not say this is your problem and I will say I try to exhaust all means first prior to deciding mafless.

    IATs rising that high should be an indication to slow down on pulls. Can't say we get crazy Miami heat out here but raising engine EGTs enough to cause your IATs that high your doing a lot wrong. One cooling mods are needed. Two you are not tuned correctly to keep temps down and odds are you don't have the safety precautions set up correctly either. Their is a spot that you can retard timing based on IATs and lots of other goodies.

    What timing are you commanding where your seeing knock?

  6. #26
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    I would also do all of my tuning from 3rd gear pulls and when your where you want to be I would limit power in first and second since it'll be too much power then.

  7. #27
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    I get that DI is a different animal than port injection... however, running so lean still creates wildly high EGT's.
    On a boosted car running 20+psi I wouldn't go a touch over 12.5 AFR on 93 octane, especially on a DD.
    Maybe a dedicated track car... but then you're using e85 or race fuel.
    The extra 3hp you'll get isn't worth the risk of your motor.

    Make your extra 3hp somewhere else.

  8. #28
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    I use .88 on my 91 tune just fine.

  9. #29
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    So I figured out that COT is cat over temp protection and TOT is turbo over temp protection. I have no cats at all to protect and I was hoping the turbo would not overheat when / it properly tuned but I would like more info on this.

    I have no problem going MAFless if needed but I know there is a lot more work to do before then.

    Here is a table that is killing me:

    HP PE question.png

    Why are the values in this 0.013??? The range is supposed to be from o to 64 (why???) and even the description doesn't make sense. I am trying to command .86 or so, what is this and why is it so off?
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  10. #30
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    I'll stop using octane boosters. I am using 0w40 oil whenever they are out of 5w30. Figured it was ok? I can stop. No offense taken, obviously I can't even win if it's running bad. Often I use test & tune events to try to dial in the calibration. Sometimes it runs great in the street and breaks up at the track, and vice versa.

    3rd gear is a real comfy gear for me to tune on the street, keep in mind my 5th is 1:1 though. Will look at timing. Thanks again for all your help!
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  11. #31
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    That table looks like a multiplier table that is based off of some temperature vs rpm. Picture didn't show.

  12. #32
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    No, it's PE EQ Ratio vs. RPM. "main table used to tune WOT fuel.
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  13. #33
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    I get that but it's a temp vs rpm table which would mean that value is not lambda. With how low the number is and the fact that it's based off of temperature I would guess its a multiplier of some sort. What is the table description?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1ce View Post
    I get that DI is a different animal than port injection... however, running so lean still creates wildly high EGT's.
    On a boosted car running 20+psi I wouldn't go a touch over 12.5 AFR on 93 octane, especially on a DD.
    Maybe a dedicated track car... but then you're using e85 or race fuel.
    The extra 3hp you'll get isn't worth the risk of your motor.

    Make your extra 3hp somewhere else.
    Uhm, .88 lambda is 12.5x when taking into consideration the 10% ethanol content of the 91/93 octane gas (14.3 Stoich).

    OP, I wouldn't be worried about how "lean" you're running but more concerned with how much timing and boost you're trying to achieve in a high humidity/hot climate. Lean is mean when it comes to DI but too much timing/boost in that kind of a climate = dedicated heat pump that likes to eat pistons.
    09 RY Cobalt SS Coupe - 19K miles - Bolt ons + 7163 ZFR, HP tuned on ethanol

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boost View Post
    So I figured out that COT is cat over temp protection and TOT is turbo over temp protection. I have no cats at all to protect and I was hoping the turbo would not overheat when / it properly tuned but I would like more info on this.

    I have no problem going MAFless if needed but I know there is a lot more work to do before then.

    Here is a table that is killing me:

    HP PE question.png

    Why are the values in this 0.013??? The range is supposed to be from o to 64 (why???) and even the description doesn't make sense. I am trying to command .86 or so, what is this and why is it so off?
    Hi Roland! Yes, strange values ​​in the table. That's what my original tables for example
    PE EQ RATIO IN,ASTR.jpg

  16. #36
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    T-man you bring up a very good point about the 10% ethanol and the air/fuel ratio but... I feel like it's still smoke and mirrors.

    Juice said he wouldn't run .88 on 93 octane. Regardless if their is ethanol in it or not it is still equal to the same lambda. This is why people should drop the notion of air/fuel ratio.

    T-man I know you know this so don't think I was trying to school you I'm just simply trying to say that for our cars .88 is perfectly fine.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1ce View Post
    I get that DI is a different animal than port injection... however, running so lean still creates wildly high EGT's.
    On a boosted car running 20+psi I wouldn't go a touch over 12.5 AFR on 93 octane, especially on a DD.
    Maybe a dedicated track car... but then you're using e85 or race fuel.
    The extra 3hp you'll get isn't worth the risk of your motor.

    Make your extra 3hp somewhere else.
    You forgot a '0' , E47 is worth 30hp on a GM 2.0 Turbo engine…
    Ethanol is 'easier' on any engine, than gasoline… great 'knock' resistance, starting at a E20 blend…
    .88 PE is the 'sweet' spot, for our DI engines…. got to love it… DI is for sure, a different animal….
    2009 HHR SS automatic--- 350 HP - 450' LBS TORQUE,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDZgoSN8Gk0
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    13.0's @ 110MPH, street tires, 12.28 @ 112.67 best on slicks, 1.7s 60' ETs

  18. #38
    Boost, yes I think we had mail contact before, but's quite long ago.

    the value in the PE table is "1/Lambda" so if you want to run lambda 0.83 you have to type in 1.204 there!

    if than your Wideband reading is not this value, you have to caibrate your MAF settings until target Lambda = actual Lambda, I know that the ZZP intake has to be calibrated, but you just copied the values of your old new sensor, that's why your wideband reading is off.

    TOT and COT is there for protecting the engine in extreme thermal situations, mainly by drowning it in fuel you can deactivate it, no problem, but than you have to take care that your PE target is achived and you EGT is not too high a good value is 960°C maximum!

    I have my knock airmass table at 1550 for values to 4-0 than falling rapidly if there is any ignition retard this saves my engine.

  19. #39
    Potential Tuner Alexander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dertobi View Post
    hi looked at your file "C"...
    i think you ar are brave man running that thing freakin' lean like that and having all COT and TOT disabled.
    your desired PE lambda(sorry i am german ) is at 0.93 this is AFR 13.6!... what is your exact wideband reading?
    on my LHU i am running it at straight 0.83 which works fine w/o any knock. had the car on the dyno last week, 512NM/349HP (Engine), I tested alot and also hat to find out the hard way that the engine as long as it is stock can not take more or you rods will blow the block. (remember german autobahn is a bit different than in the US , i run it 160mph+ nearly every day, and not pulling it gear1,2,3 until reaching the speedlimit :P )

    also all this trq mangement diabled and the max knock airmass table maxed out is a graet way to blow the engine.
    raising the driver demand this high and maxxing the torque tables and conclusively lowering PE enrichment torque etc. is also senseless for fuel consumption, the car will be in PE everytime, even if not needed.

    cheers tobi
    Hi Tobi ! 512NM/349HP (Engine) A great result! What fuel? (Octane)

  20. #40
    102octane pump fuel