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Thread: 2013 Mustang VCT - idle cam position issue

  1. #41
    Just for reference here is the mustang intake cam profile.

    (Text Box comment L&M Engines 215-675-8485)
    SMOOTH4W: CAM ANALYSIS PROGRAM (REV. 1.06)


    December 20, 2011 - 10:58:20


    OVERALL EVENT:
    157.31° @ 0.200
    173.08° @ 0.150
    189.53° @ 0.100
    210.21° @ 0.050
    230.13° @ 0.020
    256.33° @ 0.006
    267.30° @ 0.004


    NUMBER OF SMOOTHING PASSES = 3


    YMAX = 0.472472
    ACC(0) = -0.000358
    RBAS = 0.8070
    RF = 0.3500


    RUNOUT = 0.000000
    RUNOUT HAS BEEN REMOVED.


    OUTPUT OPENING SIDE
    AMAX = 0.000733 @ 53.0°
    AMIN = -0.000407 @ 10.0°
    VMAX = 0.012193 @ 42.0°
    JMAX = 0.000167 @ 63.0°
    JMIN = -0.000112 @ 48.0°
    +RCMIN = 0.537 @ 10.0°
    -RCMIN = -1.614 @ 60.0°

    AREA (TOTAL) = 16.782


    DESPT1
    DESPT2
    DESPT3
    DESPT4
    DESPT5
    DESPT6
    DESPT7
    MAX P.A.
    EVENT


    = 39.46° @ 0.2000
    = 43.57° @ 0.1500
    = 47.80° @ 0.1000
    = 52.90° @ 0.0500
    = 57.64° @ 0.0200
    = 62.37° @ 0.0060
    = 64.24° @ 0.0040
    = 28.05 @ 44.0°
    = 74°


    OUTPUT CLOSING SIDE


    0.000740 @ 49.0°


    -0.000399 @ 14.0°


    -0.013293 @ 42.0°


    0.000150 @ 44.0°


    -0.000127 @ 63.0°


    0.530 @ 27.0°
    -1.837 @ 57.0°
    16.785
    39.20° @ 0.2000
    42.97° @ 0.1500
    46.96° @ 0.1000
    52.20° @ 0.0500
    57.43° @ 0.0200
    65.80° @ 0.0060
    69.42° @ 0.0040
    30.05 @ 43.0°
    86°
    OPENING SIDE FILENAME: RintBR3E6A270DB-1.S02.OPZ
    CLOSING SIDE FILENAME: RintBR3E6A270DB-1.S02.CLZ



    (Text Box comment L&M Engines 215-675-8485)
    SMOOTH4W: CAM ANALYSIS PROGRAM (REV. 1.06)
    OPENING SIDE FILENAME: RintBR3E6A270DB-1.S02.OPZ

  2. #42
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    I got a text that his check engine light is on now... I'm going to flash him back to stock until I can log everything and make it run right.

  3. #43
    Tuner in Training bravo685's Avatar
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    The minimum VSS value is key to the whole setup. If it's anything other than Zero the cams will be parked at idle. Your check light is most likely due to the load value being off as load is calculated incorrectly causing an o2 fault.


    I'm still working on a way to calculate the speed density correction values to correct the inferred map value. On a side note keep in mind also as you make changes to the VCT mapped points at idle you will need to correct the inferred map points every time.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bravo685 View Post
    On a side note keep in mind also as you make changes to the VCT mapped points at idle you will need to correct the inferred map points every time.
    I don't know what this means. Can you explain it differently? I appreciate all your help so far.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  5. #45
    Tuner in Training bravo685's Avatar
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    The VCT mapped points are the Ex/In positions the Ghost cam uses when not in OP (full throttle). These are found in Engine: Airflow --> VCT --> Intake Valve Closing and Exhaust Valve Closing. The factory values are 0, so changing these values to some larger number gives you the cam sound but affects the tune on the engine.

    Since there is no actual map sensor connected to the manifold the pcm calculates it using an inferred map reading. This value is taken from the Speed Density tables found in Engine: Airflow --> General --> IMRC tables (there's alot).

    The IMRC tables represent a math formula called Slope Intercept form. Fords calibration concludes the map value must lay on a straight line based on the engines VE points and rpm. Once you know the Slope and Y intercept value you can calculate the next map point anywhere on that line. Of course this is all based on the OEM cam positions. Once you move the cams to a new position the Speed Density values are now wrong. Because you affected how the engine breathes. This causes the VE points to change throwing off the inferred map value for load.

    I am working on a better way to calculate this speed density correction but it's a slow process. The factory Intercept is -2.33 with a Slope of 13.20. I have figured how to correct the map value and predict it but the IMRC tables do not seem to take the value I calculate. Instead the tables use values that seem to just jump all around and don't make sense.



    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    I don't know what this means. Can you explain it differently? I appreciate all your help so far.
    Last edited by bravo685; 05-31-2014 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #46
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    Cool thank you.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  7. #47
    What did you change Mike od? I'm not at computer on phone was just curious. The slope intercept method still generates a normal lwfm table I believe. So I would think you could determine correction by logging actual load while operating in those mapped points vs the value in the calibration. Would be awesome to have a program that generates lwfm table from the speed density sections like the blue cat tool does for gm.

  8. #48
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    from the factory the Stoich AFR is set to 14.08 technically .96 Lambda

    when creating the overlap (intake and Exhuast) you will need to run leaner (commanded) as the engine characteristics changed. it will help it idle better

    Eric,

    will changing the stoich value through off speed density calculations?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning View Post
    from the factory the Stoich AFR is set to 14.08 technically .96 Lambda

    when creating the overlap (intake and Exhuast) you will need to run leaner (commanded) as the engine characteristics changed. it will help it idle better

    Eric,

    will changing the stoich value through off speed density calculations?
    Where we're located, that is stoich now. Almost all "pump gas" I can find in the US has ~10% alcohol in it.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  10. #50
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    yes forgot about that, your fuels have 10% ethanol

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    Where we're located, that is stoich now. Almost all "pump gas" I can find in the US has ~10% alcohol in it.
    Follow @MASTUNING visit www.mastuned.com
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt@MMP View Post
    What did you change Mike od? I'm not at computer on phone was just curious. The slope intercept method still generates a normal lwfm table I believe. So I would think you could determine correction by logging actual load while operating in those mapped points vs the value in the calibration. Would be awesome to have a program that generates lwfm table from the speed density sections like the blue cat tool does for gm.
    So far I haven't changed the slopes or anything else. I've only figured out how to force whatever cam positions I want at idle so far.

    I think that based on where I have the cams at idle, I should be able to start with copying the data from the slope, offset and quadratic term for mapped point 7 or 8 into 0 and 1 though...the cams are in almost the same configuration. Then I'll try to actually make a more scientific approach to it.

    I definitely need to understand this better...I've given him the lumpy idle he wants (even if it is kinda "fake"), but I've also given him a check engine light, and crappy driveability off idle. I'll fix it. Unfortunately I haven't seen him since Friday, so I haven't been able to make any more changes.
    Last edited by MikeOD; 06-02-2014 at 08:03 AM.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    So far I haven't changed the slopes or anything else. I've only figured out how to force whatever cam positions I want at idle so far.

    I think that based on where I have the cams at idle, I should be able to start with copying the data from the slope, offset and quadratic term for mapped point 7 or 8 into 0 and 1 though...the cams are in almost the same configuration. Then I'll try to actually make a more scientific approach to it.

    I definitely need to understand this better...I've given him the lumpy idle he wants (even if it is kinda "fake"), but I've also given him a check engine light, and crappy driveability off idle. I'll fix it. Unfortunately I haven't seen him since Friday, so I haven't been able to make any more changes.
    What was keeping it from holding cam position at idle?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt@MMP View Post
    What was keeping it from holding cam position at idle?
    I think it was both the oil temp table and the min VSS. I also noted that the PDF showing what cam positions to target had a sign convention wrong. That PDF shows positive on both cams. You want to go negative on the intake cam and positive on the exhaust cam to create overlap.

    The thing sounds BAD ASS if I go pretty far with both cams, but it REALLY has trouble idling until I can figure out how to correct spark/fuel.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  14. #54
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    when creating this overlap, you need to make adjustments to Dashpot and idle ISC it will help with the hesitation and off idle
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning View Post
    when creating this overlap, you need to make adjustments to Dashpot and idle ISC it will help with the hesitation and off idle
    Can you post an example before/after file?

  16. #56
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning View Post
    when creating this overlap, you need to make adjustments to Dashpot and idle ISC it will help with the hesitation and off idle
    These cars do not use the normal dashpot logic unless you enable it.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    These cars do not use the normal dashpot logic unless you enable it.
    I think by setting the min VSS to 0 from 2 (which I had to do to get the ghost cam idle to work) I did enable it. That said...I also think that I may not have needed to enable it, and if not, I'd be happy to set that back and change whatever else is necessary to make the car idle the way the owner wants.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  18. #58
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    I think by setting the min VSS to 0 from 2 (which I had to do to get the ghost cam idle to work) I did enable it. That said...I also think that I may not have needed to enable it, and if not, I'd be happy to set that back and change whatever else is necessary to make the car idle the way the owner wants.
    There is a switch that you have to flip to disabled to turn off the default "Torque Based Decel" logic. Then it will use the Dashpot functions, but you would have to populate the functions.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    There is a switch that you have to flip to disabled to turn off the default "Torque Based Decel" logic. Then it will use the Dashpot functions, but you would have to populate the functions.
    I see that now. Does that (leaving Torque Decel enabled) mean I just need to tweak the idle airflow tables now to match the change in cam timing/spark/fuel at idle?
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  20. #60
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    I see that now. Does that (leaving Torque Decel enabled) mean I just need to tweak the idle airflow tables now to match the change in cam timing/spark/fuel at idle?
    Yes, the airflow at idle is still used. But with TBD, it uses a set decay rate in RPM/sec to bring the RPM down.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC