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Thread: LNF Optimum Spark tables - how to

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    My goal is for people to learn to try tables out and test them on their own. You guys may come up with something we never thought of and be able to teach us. Or maybe you guys will perfect something better then we have. The goal is to learn it not take what we have done.
    I, for one, appreciate this mentality. I have done ECU testing before and written ECU code, but this ECU is pretty difficult for me to wrap my head around. But, once I get the car running again and have time to test, I will be right out there with you guys trying these things out.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkriebs View Post
    I, for one, appreciate this mentality.
    Same here - it's the best way to learn what does what. My 1st tuner didn't even touch the OS tables not to mention a few others and was a well known "seasoned" tuner. I learned quite a bit from the 2nd tuner as he used different techniques than the first and helped me more to figure things out on my own and on my own schedule which is important to me.

    I do like knowing just a few basic numbers to get things in the ballpark though. My example would be that I like my cruising advance around 40* and the car seems to like it too. When I ran much below 30* at cruise, the car just felt heavier and slower to respond and as I made my way up the timing ladder, I found that my specific setup likes to cruise around 40* which nets me not only the best performance but the best mileage as well.
    Last edited by JimmyS; 05-25-2015 at 09:36 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by powermizer View Post
    What about the load axis on the OS table? It reads 0. The MS table reads 15. So do you suggest putting the OS table to 15 instead of 0 or the other way around? Thanks Bill
    This is a funny, maybe even a stupid question. What I have found is if you look at what RPM and load you idle at you can find the answer to this question in a hurry. Better idle stability is found by keeping these axis's loads the same as your engine idles at. If your load changes slightly and your load axis doesn't match the timing will drift more. A clarity issue. If that makes sense. I spent a bit of time to find this out. Old news. Sorry if this is such beginner info.

    OK there are no stupid questions. so I've heard.
    Last edited by powermizer; 05-26-2015 at 10:54 PM. Reason: change table to axis

  4. #64
    Just started messing with these again. Been out of the game for two years, but just picked up a lnf sedan. What's everyone using to log these to see the changes? I experimented with just adding 10 to every cell first after taking out the main spark tables and could definitely tell a difference, but havent had much time to experiment outside of that.

  5. #65
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I read the pages, the description, etc... and still have some questions.

    The way I always used to interpret Optimum Spark was like Ford's MBT spark tables, and the Main Spark as Ford's Borderline Knock Tables. I assume this is not the case with the LNF?

    If I wanted to add to the final spark value at WOT, wouldn't I be able to just add the delta to the cells for both Main Spark and Optimum Spark? It just so happens my stock final spark at WOT is around 10*-11*, if I wanted to raise that to 20*, wouldn't I add 10* to those cells for both MS and OS tables?

  6. #66
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    it kind of is a an MBT table. The only issue here is that its used for TQM.

    If you load cell tested the car and found MBT to enter into the table then yes it would run good. The problem for most lies in the snappy throttle response. in order to get the ecu to respond faster you generally overshoot the MBT value in this table so the computer thinks there is more room before it hits MBT. Basically it comes down to, the more room from actual request to MBT, the larger and cruder the adjustments get. this ecu doesnt have a gigantic spark table like other ecu's. (16x32 kind of gigantic) I believe having the tables set to be faster responding helps out with data adjustments in transition states but i dont have solid proof to say thats how it officially works.

    if you set opti to match MBT and main ignition gets close, the ecu slows down and bottle necks the adjustments because it knows its already close to a value that doesnt need to be exceeded. If anything above MBT is useless overkill ignition, the ecu has been programmed via Bosch to not go there. Yes its true its related to MBT, but as a TQM table it's direct effect is advance response and pedal sensitivity.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  7. #67
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    So the higher the difference between OS and MS, the faster the response hence why the high load/high RPM cells have a higher delta between OS and MS? And the lower delta means a slower response, which is more suited for cruising regions of the spark table?

    How would I add to the final spark value at WOT? By massaging the delta between the OS and MS?

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  9. #69
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    That confused me a bit more. I'm just trying to add more final spark at WOT, not adjust pedal response.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    I read the pages, the description, etc... and still have some questions.

    The way I always used to interpret Optimum Spark was like Ford's MBT spark tables, and the Main Spark as Ford's Borderline Knock Tables. I assume this is not the case with the LNF?

    If I wanted to add to the final spark value at WOT, wouldn't I be able to just add the delta to the cells for both Main Spark and Optimum Spark? It just so happens my stock final spark at WOT is around 10*-11*, if I wanted to raise that to 20*, wouldn't I add 10* to those cells for both MS and OS tables?
    That is how I basically worked it. Optimum spark - main spark is what you either want to maintain (as you adjust the main spark table for ignition spark advance) if you want a stock response, or adjust to your liking. So always subtract main spark from optimum spark before "tuning" it, then add main spark back in when you are done.

    The main spark seems to be just as you say ignition timing and if you want 20* total, just enter that in the high load/rpm cell where you want it. You could end up with slightly less or more if your Optimum spark - main spark values are either quite high or low I guess. I think I lost 1/2 degree at WOT in my logs when I reduced my optimum spark table quite a bit to make the throttle pedal less reactive (I had measurably higher than stock values for before that adjustment). You can just check your logs and put another 1/2 degree back in the main spark if something like that happens. So in a sense optimum spark can from my experience slightly affect actual attained spark values, but not by a huge amount.

    FWIW I have tried all sorts of optimum spark values and strategies based off of reading here. I ultimately like the "shape" of the stock optimum spark tables (that is optimum spark - main spark really). So I took the stock optimum spark - main spark and to make it a bit more lively, just multiplied that whole table by a factor of 1.1 (might try 1.2 or 1.3 to be even more lively), then add the main spark back (after multiplying only the optimum spark - main spark by 1.1) in to complete the table. Not sure if this works well for everyone, but for me, my spark tables are only modified in the top 50% of load cells and blended to stock in the lower load cells (I modified WOT highest load cells to their knock limit for my fuel, then blended those back to stock by the mid load cells).

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    That confused me a bit more. I'm just trying to add more final spark at WOT, not adjust pedal response.
    From the OP, try this and it might help to shed some light.

    "As a safe method of seeing what power the optimum spark table has, set the difference (as explained above) to "-10" across the whole table. I like using "-10" as a more dramatic example. Add your main spark table back in and go make a pull through the gears. Then, repeat with making the entire difference "5" or "10" like Mike said and make another run. This will give you an understanding of HOW to manipulate the optimum spark and what it does to overall performance with a single table. "50" seems to be the max for instability on a stock turbo. Stay well below this."

    FWIW, I enjoy having mine setup exponentially with great care taken on the low load areas
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  12. #72
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Do I need to make all of the OS the same, and all of the MS the same? If so, which do I use as the base "template", the Int Max / Exh Max tables?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Do I need to make all of the OS the same, and all of the MS the same? If so, which do I use as the base "template", the Int Max / Exh Max tables?
    Yes, they need to match IE 1 table for all 4 OS tables, 1 for all 4 MS tables. Best bet is to just modify one of the MS tables (smooth it out, set it how you desire) and then copy it on to all MS tables.
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  14. #74
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    How do I pick the table to use for the other tables? Do I arbitrarily find the one with the highest values? Or?

  15. #75
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    You make one. If you aren't going to make one, then there is no point in changing the other tables, and you might as well leave it stock.

  16. #76
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    My question was which table do you use to start? I believe there are slight differences for the different cam positions for MS and OS (e.g. Exh Max, Int Max, Exh Min, Int Min, etc...) resulting in 4 different tables for each: MS and OS. Do I just arbitrarily pick one of them to use as the basis for creating the new spark tables?

  17. #77
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    Yes. Just pick one, subtract it from OP Spark, design a table, and then paste it to all four, then add it to the OP Spark, then copy that OP Spark, then past to all four.

  18. #78
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I finally got around to playing with the Cobalt. I ended up just adding the amount of spark I want added to all 8 tables, keeping the delta the same. So stock timing at WOT is about 11* from 4k-6.5k RPM, I ended up adding 13 degrees to all 8 tables for the 160+ load / 4k+ RPM cells and now see 24* of final spark advance. I'm sure someone will tell me this was the wrong way to do it, but it seemed the easiest way.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by codename bil doe View Post
    this should also help people see why making changes to the main spark, alone, can have big unintended consequences to throttle response. If you add 5?? to a cell in the main spark without using the above method to keep the optimum spark unchanged, you've now reduced the difference between the ms and os in that one cell by 5??. It would be the equivalent of subtracting 5?? from that cell in the os causing the ecm to have less urgency and be more sluggish, delay boost, etc.

    Personally, i recommend making this table a single value. It is another table that will help make pedal response linear. Setting this table to where you are happy will require you to go back and make adjustments to other more minor urgency tables.

    side note: don't forget to correct the 600 rpm row in the main spark tables and change it to 800 rpm to match the optimum spark tables.


    What exactly does the side note mean? I thought the axis' weren't editable?

  20. #80
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    You can edit the numbers in the axes.