Advice on VE table?

[1965 ssvert]

Current VE table/tune and latest log attached. Just installed a LC1 wideband as well. I have been changing my VE table based on my fuel logs. Am I headed in the right direction?

It also seems there is some KR in the .40 gal/cyl and 2000 RPM range. Caused by VE table and or lean fueling?

This is not the car in the signature, it is an 02 Camaro 5.7L.

[mowton]

Current VE table/tune and latest log attached. Just installed a LC1 wideband as well. I have been changing my VE table based on my fuel logs. Am I headed in the right direction?

It also seems there is some KR in the .40 gal/cyl and 2000 RPM range. Caused by VE table and or lean fueling?

This is not the car in the signature, it is an 02 Camaro 5.7L.

The simple answer is no...your VE table is now hosed and you need to put it back to the stock values. There are 2 fueling models the PCM uses, MAF and Speed Density. You can look up the differences in detail, but simply put, the MAF measures the airflow density (determines the amount of air entering the engine) and the Speed Density (VE) uses a calculation methodology based on several laws and parameters like air temp, cylinder size, MAP (load) etc.

To tune the VE you must first "fail" the MAF. This done by setting Engine>Airflow>General>Dynamic Airflow>High RPM Disable to 8000, Engine>Fuel>Open & Closed Loop>Open Loop>STFT Openloop to Disable, Engine>Fuel>Open & Closed Loop>Closed Loop>ECT vs IAT to 285 *F across the board and Long Term Fuel Trims (LTFT Enable) to disable. To fail the MAF, go to Engine Diagnostics>Airflow>MAF Sensor>MAF Frequency Fail High and set to 1. Lastly go to DTC's and set P0101, 0102 and 0103 to MIL on First Error.

You will have to also setup a histogram to log AFR error (commanded AFR vs W
LC-1 WB readings) to log the 5error to make your adjustments. There are demo's and sticky's on the above as well.

Remember when you are collecting data, you need to keep pedal movements to a minimum and when you do, must be smooth and gradual to collect steady state data. You don't want abrupt fuel requirements "contaminating" your logged data. Again, there are many threads and forum information on all the above. You are going to have to do a fair amount of reading to get the process down and embark on you tuning adventure. The Forum is here to help as well.

Hope this helps.

Ed M

[1965 ssvert]

Thanks for taking the time to look and being brutally honest. I was doing what the HP tuners help section on VE tables explained. I tried it with disabling STFTs as well. It didn't mention failing the MAF or the other pieces you explained. I have been reading, reading, and reading. It is hard to separate the threads that have good solid information and find ones that have all the steps for a particular process unless you already know what you are looking for. I read every sticky I run across, but they are scattered. I wish there was a category on the forums just for stickies all concentrated into one spot.

Back to stock I will go for another shot with the correct process.

[JamesLinder]

You need to set up your wideband to log with your scanner and measure the AFR error at each table value in the MAF sensor table.
This requires doing some homework to set up your scanner to work with your wide band sensor. If you check the posts there are
instructions on how to do this somewhere on the HP tuners forum or in the help section of the software. When doing this you must
disable your dynamic air table so that the VE table(s) is not impacting your readings, force open loop operation (by setting closed
loop enable temperature to 284 degrees or whatever is highest value the table will take all the way across from left to right),
and change all values in the open loop Fuel Air Multiplier table to 1.0 above 150 degrees so that these will not impact AFR when
you are scanning for MAF errors.

Once you drive and log AFR errors and modify the MAF table values to yield AFR errors close to zero, then you can re-enable your
dynamic - VE table and save the file. Make a copy of this file and call it VE tuning version and disable the MAF sensor by setting
fail frequency to zero under engine diagnostic section. Copy High octane timing into low octane timing table (PCM typically uses
low octane table values during MAF failure). Now you can drive and log AFR errors verses VE table cells using the scanner. There
is a configuration file where this is typically already set up for you or some one can send to you. Now you will be correcting
the VE's in the secondary VE table if you have one (because if you have a secondary table, it is used when there is a MAF
failure). If there is no secondary VE table, then make changes to the primary VE table until the AFR errors are close to zero.
When finished you will then re-enable the MAF by setting failure frequency back to the original value.

I personally do not re-enable closed loop by leaving the ECT at such a high value that the motor always stays in open loop. With
headers and other modifications I find that the fuel trims rarely work correctly and detract from throttle response and make
your gas mileage worse. However, you do need to reverse the changes you made in dynamic air table so that the VE tables
values will be used again. Your final tune will have all settings in the tune file back to their original values except the new MAF
values and new VE table values you have computed by scanning and eliminating AFR errors, except for leaving the ECT for open
loop set too high for the PCM to ever go closed loop.

Always leave STFT disabled. If you would like to learn the best way to do all this in my opinion, you would buy the Greg Banish
DVD that is sold by Summit racing. It goes through all this step by step. By the way, before trying to tune your motor, it is
essential that your fuel injector tables are set exactly correct for the ones you have. If the flow rate values are not correct,
you are wasting your time.

[JamesLinder]

Keep in mind that you are logging your wideband which is "actual AFR" and comparing it to the parameter built
into the software referred to as "high resolution commanded AFR". The difference between these two divided
by the actual AFR is the % error in AFR. This is what you will log in the histograms that look identical to the
MAF and VE tables so that you can multiply these values by the error correction factor. If AFR error is positive,
(that is, when actual AFR is greater than commanded AFR, such as 15.6 actual verses 14.6 commanded when logging)
you are too lean and must increase MAF value or increase VE value depending on which table you are logging
and correcting. If AFR error is negative, you must decrease the MAF value or VE value by the % error you
logged. Keep in mind that the multiplier for increasing MAF or VE when error is positive is equal to % error
expressed as a fraction and ADDED to 1.000 and the multiplier for decreasing the MAF or VE when AFR error is
negative is 1.000 plus the negative AFR error which yields a multiplier less than 1. Again, order the Greg Banish
DVD and you will become an expert over night. Tuning by fuel trims simply does not work, and once you tune
the MAF and VE's with your wide band you will be in shock at the difference it makes in acceleration and throttle
response; you can always re-enable closed loop to see if it makes the car run better, however I have never seen
this to be the case.

[1965 ssvert]

That is a lot to take in, going to the summit website to see about the DVD as soon as I am done here. Every time I feel like I understand a part I realize how lost I am. I just got done logging with the parameters that Mowton suggested. First log I forgot to set the MAF hz to 1. Round two got it taken care of. MAF failed, stock VE table, etc. Still trying to configure a histogram to give me the error between the two, a little burnt out on it right now. I am assuming I modify my VE table by the error % between actual and commanded by doing a copy, special paste + into the tune VE table file. James process from the DVD sounds like a completely different process that doesn't fail the MAF in phase one. My actual AFR hovered around 11.3xx and the commanded high res was 14.4xxx (logged lo res too, couldn't tell much difference between the two). I attached the log file and the tune file. You guys literally speak a different language around here....

[1965 ssvert]

James, you don't happen to want to sell or rent your copy of the Greg Banish DVD do you. That puppy is spendy. As much as I'd like to it really isn't in the budget at the moment.

[JamesLinder]

I will help you set up your wide band in the software. Send me the formula they use to compute lambda, the exact name and model of your
wide band, and a config file you have started setting up. The best way to log and make corrections is to use lambda error instead of AFR error,
then you automatically are logging correction factors. The one thing I forgot to point out is that during MAF logging you have to go to
dynamic air tab and set high RPM disable to 400 RPM. Also send me your latest tune file that is in the PCM and I will create an open loop
version for MAF tuning and another for VE tuning. I will send you my spreadsheet for computing the new VE values based on logging results
and with all this you can log lambda error for both your MAF tuning version and your VE tuning version and once you paste these new values
in the original tune file in the PCM then you will be done. It is not has difficult as it sounds, however it can get tricky setting up the lambda
error, commanded lambda PIDs in the scanning software and building the histograms that record this while you are logging. This way you
will not have to buy the DVD. Using lambda error also eliminates any issues with amount of ethanol in your gasoline and the impact this has
on stoichiometric AFR of your fuel. Send to my extra email address: [email protected] I will probably have to charge you
the cost of 2 credits I use to license a file that can be loaded into your car.

[1965 ssvert]

Thanks James, I really appreciate all the information. I appreciate the offer to setup the histograms as well. I really need to understand the how and why for the next car, so I broke down and ordered the Greg Banish DVD. I just can't seem to put enough info together to get a clear understanding, or a solid start here/end here. The HPtuners help in the software seems to be missing quite a bit, some of the sticky links in the forum are not functional, etc. Hopefully I will save my self enough time and frustration to cover the investment.

I am going to be looking for a used copy of the Advanced #2 Greg Banish tuning DVD if any one out there has one they are through with and wants to sell it.

[JamesLinder]

Although Greg's DVD is over-priced IMO, it does give you a huge jump start on setting up HP tuners for tuning with a wide band
oxygen sensor, how to tune the MAF and VE tables, and the importance of getting the fuel injector data correct and some useful
spread sheets showing the flow rate, offset and min pulse-width data for some widely used fuel injectors. His approach, logging
Lambda error, directly yields the factors (multipliers) you need to revise MAF and VE tables without performing any additional
math (which is required when logging AFR error). Lambda error is also the best way to avoid having to deal with the different
stoichiometric ratios of gasoline with varying ethanol content. Using Lambda for tuning eliminates this from the equation.

Greg also shows you how to set up your logging histograms in HP tuners' scanning software and discusses some of the common
mistakes to avoid. I have not seen the advanced #2 DVD, however I would imagine it deals with forced induction and more
difficult tunes such as nitrous, etc. Unless you are working with forced induction, I doubt you will need the advanced DVD.
Greg does not cover how to hook your wideband output to the HP tuners interface, however that is very easy to do; there is
one wire (0 to 5 volts output) that goes to the HP interface device (usually green) along with one ground wire (usually black)
that comes out of the oxygen sensor controller box. Most tuners hook the green wire to the E/I Input terminal #1 and I believe
the ground wire goes to terminal #4. There is a diagram either on here or in your software help sections which shows these
terminals. Then you just configure the scanning software so that E/I Input #1 is your Lambda metering device, which is your
wide band, using the lambda equation instead of its AFR equation. Maybe my two configuration files for idle tuning and driving
tuning will help you. Mine is set up for the Zeitronix Zt2 wide band unit that I purchased due to cost and reliability.

[1965 ssvert]

Definitely overpriced, I am expecting a lot out of that DVD. When you mentioned it I was prepared for an expensive $100-150, but $250. Education is expensive. The second one says it deals with large cams which is the main reason I am going to look for it.
I already have the wideband hooked up so that isn't an issue, just need to figure out how to switch everything to Lambda readings. I think the LC1 can do that through the included software, I will have to check again. Seems to be the consensus that Lambda 1 instead of AFR 14.7 stoich is the way to go.
Thanks for the files! I can not get them to "parse" in my program. I had the same issue with another one I tried to download and it HPtuners claimed it had to do with him using an older version of the software. I hope it isn't an issue with my program, I have been unsuccessful at getting my MPVI to standalone data log as well. I connect, write the program, unplug from laptop, just like the explanation and the demo video. VIN shows up under the MPVI "get info". When it comes time to get to business the red error light comes on solid. At least it works with the laptop. I do wish I could open histogram configuration files though. I saved them in case a work around is found in the future.

[jcrumpley]

The Tuning School Learn at Home beginners books are good too. They are more expensive than that DVD though, but offer a year of free live support. They walk you through all the steps to tuning a Gen 3 and MAF only Tuning on a Gen 4.

[1965 ssvert]

The Greg Banish DVD was great. Expensive, yes, but I now have an understanding of where and how to begin. Now I wish I had a dyno for steady state tuning and a lab grade O2 sensor. I was definitely shooting in the dark. Having a well respected professional put it all in a step by step prospective takes the mystery out of it. Greg really knows his stuff, I wish the video was longer...the more he talks the more sense it all makes. It would have taken me a ton of trial and error to setup the scanner the way he does in the DVD, probably saved me as much time and fuel as the DVD cost. Still a little confused about the second lambda equation he doesn't really explain and need to find the actual stoich value of the Fred Meyer 92 premium around these parts. James, thanks for the recommendation!

[eficalibrator]

probably saved me as much time and fuel as the DVD cost.

Thanks for the kind words. I keep telling people that its price is a relative bargain compared to what I spent learning this stuff. I'm glad you found value in it!

Still a little confused about the second lambda equation he doesn't really explain and need to find the actual stoich value of the Fred Meyer 92 premium around these parts. James, thanks for the recommendation!

Which equation, specifically? If you are using pump gas these days, we pretty much assume that it's e10 just about everywhere now. E10 has a stoich point of ~14.1:1. you can split the difference between that and 14.7 of "gasoline" as I used to, but anymore I just use 14.2 almost exclusively for street cars. This does a good job getting really close on chemistry before the closed loop corrections even take a shot at fixing anything as I drive from state to state.

[1965 ssvert]

Wow, wasn't expecting a reply from the man himself! I figured out the second equation. Specifically I couldn't figure out how you arrived at the .286 in the check equation: AF=(V/.286) + 8. Mine for the LC1 is AF= (V/.328)+7.35 I believe, the check still comes out a little off from rounding. I think I have that sorted out.

I used a very long hill near my house to keep speeds low and avoid deceleration from skewing the results. After a few rounds I was within a few percent on the MAF and felt a big boost in part throttle driving. I did the same with the VE table and smoothed it out by hand it seemed to get pretty close as well. Still having an issue trimming fuel in closed loop when I return the car to a regular tune file with the MAF and VE updated. I can't find any tables that would directly affect fueling in CL, when trim learn and CL is off in the editor the actual lambda is pretty close to the commanded. I started another thread on the problem:http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?46394-VE-MAF-tuning-Q-s-Negative-fuel-trims-after. I also changed my stoich AFR in the calibration to 14.1 (auto corrects it to 14.124XX for some reason) to see if it helped, also tried 13.93 thinking there was 15% ethanol in the fuel, also updated the.....same CL fuel being pulled.

I am ordering the Engine Management Advanced Tuning book, my Barnes and Noble was out of stock unfortunately. I plan on ordering DVD #2 after I finish digesting my current issues. I noticed the Calibrated Success classes are all on the East Coast, I will be keeping my eyes out for West Coast appearances in the next few years....???