LNF Vats disable

[patooyee]

What would need upgrades? Rods, pistons? I wouldn't have imagined that the Fam I's were so different from the Fam II's???

[patooyee]

NM, I just discovered the build books.

So unless I want to build an engine get a Fam II.

[Ecotec2.4]

This is a few quotes of threads I have read about different blocks (which I always thought) and the thread below kinda makes me believe only 06-07 LE5 had some kind of forged internals.
.................................................. .........................
Yeah the LAP is 2nd gen and so is the LE5.

07 and up 2.2 has the gen II block I believe. someone correct me if i'm wrong

You are correct 07+ l61, LE5, LAP, LNF.

So I take it the rods n pistons are still crap on these 2.2's and need to be replaced for my turbo build?

Yup, only mainstream eco's with forged internals were the lk9, lsj, lnf, and 06-07 le5's.

http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f...se-read-66445/

[patooyee]

So that is to say that all 06 and 07 le5's have the good forged internals? What qualifies as "internals?" Rods, Pistons, crank?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

the crank only needs replacing if exceeding 900 hp so most keep it.
Connecting rods are junk, pistons are junk, cams need re-profiling, block needs to be bored and honed with a torque plate, i switch the main caps out for custom steel replacements, i use a set of custom main and head studs made from L-19 like the supra guys use(arp kits are fine if you wish to not spend the money), eliminate the factory oil pump (explodes possible above 8000), balance shafts deleted, and fuel upgrades.

lnf fuel upgrades - upgraded in tank fuel pump, hpfp additional lobe camshafts (zzp), and LHU Fuel injectors. Secondary rail in manifold with 42 or 60 lb/hr injectors run off a microsquirt (megasquirt if you want to control nos activation and co2 sprayers)
lsj fuel upgrades - remove in tank pump and replace with on frame walbro or aeromotive replacement, 80 or 120 lb/hr injectors depending on requested power level, adjustable boost referenced fuel psi regulator, dual feed center return injector rail, -10 AN supply "Y" fitting to dual -8 AN to feed the rail and a -6 or -8 return line (dependent on pump flow volume)

I only recommend porting technicians that specialize in low flow performance. the valve is only at max lift for a short amount of time but see's low flow at open and close. heads that have been ported for major low flow gains and a nice max flow rating outperform everyone else's off shelf heads every time.

*note: if you have a Gen I LNF motor it will have bore sleeves. you cannot bore these as they will crack and cause massive internal damage. The new Gen II LDK/LHU block has solid bores and many other upgrades. Unfortunately lsj heads cannot be swapped onto them so you will have to use direct injection on these blocks. from aftermath chatter of boosted le5 and lsj's i believe the le5 has a not so strong block casting and will likely crack sooner under high boost (30+ psi) when compared to the lsj.

i have the build book which is cool but almost half the stuff they list for upgrades doesn't exist any more or has been further upgraded by many other companies. still a good reference book, i kept mine.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

internals= crank/rods/pistons/balance shafts
uppers= valves/springs/retainers/cams

the le5 does not have good internals, just a decent crankshaft

[Ecotec2.4]

the le5 does not have good internals, just a decent crankshaft

really ?
I know one stock LE5 boosted 330whp 12-15psi beat on and still going 30,000 miles later. I have 20,000+ @11psi only beating at drag strip 3 times a year maybe. ???????? IDK my rods are the first part number and description.

Here are the different part numbers for the rods:

2006-2007: 12596088 A 2.4-B/P (LE5), (1ST DES) ROD, CONN (FORGED STEEL W/ROUNDED EDGES ON CAP AND MFG TRIM MARK AROUND OUTER PERIMETER) (FOR 2ND DES SEE 12611360)

2008+ 12598216 A 2.4-B/P (LE5), (2ND DES) ROD, CONN (POWDER METAL W/SMOOTH SURFACE CAP AND SINGLE RIDGE ACROSS CAP, W/O MFG TRIM MARK AROUND OUTER PERIMETER) (FOR 1ST DES SEE 12596088)

[patooyee]

I'm not willing nor do I need to build a block. I'm mainly just looking for the best block to take to a reasonable power level under boost using a stock engine internals with a transaxle. (Probably a 4t45 or a 4t65.) So in that sense I guess you could say that my power limit will be determined by the engine chosen. From what I am gathering only the boosted engines had blocks or internals worth messing with so despite their extreme premium price that is what I should be looking for, correct? A non-boosted engine will have internals that apparently do not hold up to boost?

I would be happy with 300hp at the crank and 300+ ft lbs. Mileage is not a huge concern for me. Once I install this engine it may see another 10000 miles in its lifetime, even that would be a lot for what I do.

[patooyee]

So just going through the list of Fam I & II engines trying to summarize my potential donors:

LK9: weak Gen I block, would be difficult to find anyway.
LSJ: Has decent power but still a Gen I block, forged internals, but is difficult and expensive to find.
L61: Gen 1 block, weak powdered iron internals.
LNF: Great power, forged internals, Gen II block, goes for extreme premium on the used market though and is expensive / problematic to get around VATS. Has direct injection.
LDK, LHU: Basically the same as LNF, difficult to find anyway.
LAP, LE8: Gen II block with weak internals.
LE5, LE9 / LAT: Gen II block, weak internals EXCEPT possibly on some 2006 & 7 models. This is uncertain thought and I wouldn't go buying one since I wouldn't be able to check the rods and pistons before buying anyway.
LAF, LEA, LUK: Direct injection, prefer not to mess with it.

Does all this sound about right? If so, it sounds like I'm back to the LNF as basically my only option and just having to deal with the computer and DI as a consequence of getting the only engine worth a flip? Force inducing an NA engine is nonviable since any NA engine is going to have weak powdered iron internals?

And I thought these engines were supposed to be good???

[Ecotec2.4]

Here some info I looked at once, looks like buggy guys like the 2.4L.
In the end its all your decission. Have you been to CSS.NET and read up on boosted 2.4L's cause there is a lot of them. Mine 07 LE5 11psi w/4T45E and loving it.

Good Luck.

************************************************** *************
It's time to move on from that leaking, expensive, and tired air-cooled VW motor! No longer are the days of expensive and complicated fuel injection motor systems! OEM reliable fuel injection systems are in REACH. Did you know that GM built over 4 million 2.4L LE5 Ecotec's from 2006 to 2009? That's right - over 4 MILLION.

So what does that mean to you, the customer? It means that finding a low mileage LE5 2.4L Ecotec is as easy as picking up the phone. It also means that the LE5 2.4L Ecotec offers you an EXTREME VALUE for your money. The term "Dime a Dozen" fits here nicely. Parts are affordable and readily available at your local Autozone or NAPA.

The LE5 is a larger 2.4 L—2,384 cc (145.5 cu in)—version of the Ecotec. Both the 88 mm (3.5 in) bore and 98 mm (3.9 in) stroke are larger, and Variable Valve Timing [VVT] on the intake and exhaust improve low-end torque. Compression is 10.4:1. Power is 164-177 hp (123-132 kW) and torque is 159-170 lb·ft (215-230 N·m). The engine uses a reinforced "Gen II" block. The LE5 is a true 175 HP out-of-the-box solution.

The 2.4L Ecotec is the motor of choice in off-road applications at AFI. Here is why:

* The cost difference between the 2.2L L61 is negligible.
* The 2.4L LE5 offers more displacement
* The 2.4L LE5 supports VVT
* The 2.4L LE5 supports Electronic Throttle Body
* The 2.4L LE5 uses the 'reinforced' GM GEN II block [the same block as the LSJ/LNF]
*The early production [2006-2007] 2.4L LE5's are BOOST READY w/ forged pistons, rods, & crankshafts
* The 2.4L LE5 has targeted oil jets to cool pistons
* The 2.4L LE5 has a higher flowing intake manifold [than the L61]
* The 2.4L LE5 uses 58X crankshaft position sensing
* The 2.4L LE5 uses digital crankshaft & camshaft position sensors
* The 2.4L LE5 uses an individual coil on plug ignition system
* The 2.4L LE5 uses the vastly superior 32-bit E67 ECM

[cobaltssoverbooster]

if you can lower compression on a le5 to 9 i would stuff with boost and be done with it. easy upgrades, nice computer to work with, still get cam phasing abilities or can lock it out with solid cams and gears, non intake restrictive ports good for porting.

the le5 is a great motor, the pistons dont last very long under boost when compared to other models, the rods are forged steel and good for a nice amount of hp (enough to be useless on the street in a fwd setup). i wouldn't rely on a factory rod for anything over 400 hp (personal preference)


i wasn't trying to say the le5 is a horrible motor that is the 2.2 alpha n block Gen I eco. this block was good for its time and had almost no interest for performance until the supercharged edition came out. when the Gen II Lnf was released people were getting on the 4 cyl power wagon just like the srt4 guys did. They threw us new forged higher quality rods, oil cooled pistons with oil squirter's, a more reliable crank and started DI program which surprised everyone when it made 330 wtrq in the cobalt's with just stock parts and a tune. Le5 came out in 05 i believe along side the lap and le8. if you can get hold of a later model le5, like around 07, the forged internals are stout enough to hold power adders for an estimated 1 yr with abusive punishment. expect a ring land to be dropped and consequently discard a rod over 380 hp around or slightly before that estimated 1 yr time.(some people get lucky and last a long time so im going off an average of what i see) cylinder head from the lsj, lap, and le5 share the same bolt pattern iirc and thus heads can be swapped with the exception of taking one of the vvt heads and swapping to the lsj block. the vvt heads have oil passages that aren't in the lsj block from what i've seen. lhu and laf are classed as Gen III and make great racing blocks from the factory. just upgrade the machine work detail and call it a day. it does have direct injection and the Laf is not been used solo due to how new its software is to the public.

if i was building a motor i would aim for 3 of the motors listed above.
Le5 would be my first pick= Big bores/big crank 2.4 oogaa boogah ecotec a standard set of srp (sister to JE) or cheap aluminum racing piston will be perfect for 500 hp. a set of rods from k1 or zzp(if they make em for the 2.4 cant remember) will put you at a solidly reliable 7800 rpm machine when combo'd with a set of valve springs (supertech valvetrain kits are nice and easy on the wallet). because of liter volume i would run a gt30r street or a 35r strip. the factory computers have a boost control feature that is set to disabled from the factory. just add the wires in the right spot and the computer can control it.

lhu is my second pick= zzp sells a ldk/lhu crate motor for around $3k. these tend to have the new rods, second design pistons, adjustable oil squirter's, and a set of 15% larger DI Injectors when compared to Lnf. All these need to make great power are intercooler, charge pipes with minimal bends, and a turbo upgrade (zfr is most common due to not having to purchase new parts like exhaust manifold, a whole new charge pipe, and it utilizes the factory wiring harness.) Buy the Trifect stand alone and for half the price of any built lsj or le5 you will be netting the same power. 600 hp is the failure point of the internals power wise, but expect shortened piston life over 400 hp.)
*note: lets compare parts to achieve 400 hp....
le5: rods, pistons, small massage of the ports, new exhaust manifold, new turbocharger, bov, wastegate, new charge pipes, intercooler, new boost sensors, new camshafts, valve springs, new high volume fuel pump, new dual feed fuel rail, fuel pressure regulator to handle higher flow, 80lb/hr injectors.
LNF/LHU: valve springs (and arp head studs if going high boost) install 3 bar sensors, install zfr, new charge pipes and intercooler, a trifecta flash if needing stand alone. run boost to around 24psi to achieve 400 hp and 28-30 to get closer to 500. if your running out of fuel just put a set of zzp fuel lobe cams in it and you just squeezed another 10-20% more fuel into your range.

lsj is the third choice: these are my favorites to build up for ease of electronic controlling. Fixed cams from comp cams or zzp with adjustable gears, rods will handle enough but pistons end around 400 rather quickly it seems. requires a dual feed fuel system, but switching these to e85 of methanol race fuel makes them mean as all get out when complimented with proper head work and cams. ive personally seen 4 lsj race motors make between 900 and at the max i witnessed 1173 hp(nhra and ihra class ecotecs have landed in the range of 1400 hp). Ryan from zzp had a 900 hp edition and iirc Rhys Millens solstice also used an lsj around 600 hp. great motor with simple tuning steps due to its removed variables (ie: cam phasers, injection window adjustments, dancing kr ecu calculations) nice motor but as stated have fun finding one bare or crate for a reasonable price.
price for upgrade per hp is going to be around the same as an le5 setup would be due to the supercharger needing replacement to either a $3k harrop kit or a $3-4k turbo swap. a lot of junk bolt ons need removing to go over 400 as i witness time and time again.
300 hp lsj usually has these, 2.7 pulley on the m62 blower, dual bypass kit, secondary or larger replacement water cooler for the supercharger system, new headers, cai, 80lb/hr injectors with a secondary fuel feed and new regulator to keep cylinder 4 from going lean and blowing the lands off the piston.

the rest are garbage to me personally. i don't want to worry about block casting porosity, inferior block supports, or inferior internals for a bone stock motor im about to abuse. if i want to take a factory block and beat it to death those are the 3 i would choose from every time until i was forced to look for other options due to low inventory.

Last thing the l61 is used in offroad factory motor classes but is fast being replaced by the le5

[Ecotec2.4]

NO, not trying to start or say any thing bad here about what you have posted.
I agree that all those FI motors are stronger than the LE5......
I was just throwing out idea's and going by what he asked and said in the statement below.

I would be ecstatic with 300 flywheel hp much less WHEEL hp,

You helped me a whole bunch to learn some of this HPTuner stuff, so all is good.
Thanks

[cobaltssoverbooster]

i scorn everyone who asks for a tune to be sent to them...
you ask the questions to learn then i tend to really jump on board.

i would go 2.4 myself due to availability and favoritism to the large displacement size of the family. 300 whp shouldn't require too much work unless boosting on factory parts. definitely would stop at 12 psi but it would be verified at 10 psi by egt and timing that i would be able to run 12 first.

[patooyee]

Have you been to CSS.NET and read up on boosted 2.4L's cause there is a lot of them.

No, I tried css.net and it is a blank web page???

if you can lower compression on a le5 to 9 i would stuff with boost and be done with it.

What is the best way to lower CR short of changing pistons? I doubt you'll get it down that far with just a thick head gasket. (Do they even make them?)

i scorn everyone who asks for a tune to be sent to them...
you ask the questions to learn then i tend to really jump on board.

i would go 2.4 myself due to availability and favoritism to the large displacement size of the family. 300 whp shouldn't require too much work unless boosting on factory parts. definitely would stop at 12 psi but it would be verified at 10 psi by egt and timing that i would be able to run 12 first.

I feel like I am getting lost in a previous conversation that i wasn't privy to here, but I just want to reiterate that I appreciate both of your help and hope that this thread doesn't turn into an all-too-common internet pissing match. I guess I'll make sure not ask you for a tune though.

[Ecotec2.4]

No, I tried css.net and it is a blank web page???
What is the best way to lower CR short of changing pistons? I doubt you'll get it down that far with just a thick head gasket. (Do they even make them?)
I feel like I am getting lost in a previous conversation that i wasn't privy to here, but I just want to reiterate that I appreciate both of your help and hope that this thread doesn't turn into an all-too-common internet pissing match. I guess I'll make sure not ask you for a tune though.

excuse me I meant cobaltss.net and yep, looks like GMSC has gone away.
CR you got it, have never looked into thicker head gasket.

NO NO, no issues with CSSOB looks like it was just a "I thought, He thought, I thought" thing.
I was simply stating the the early LE5's were boost ready to 300 whp and can disable VATS.
There are lots of LE5 engines out there being boosted in vehicles other than the Cobalt/G5.

[patooyee]

Think I'm going to keep my eye out for a complete wrecked 2006 - 2007 LE5 with auto trans or a good deal on an LNF and plan to use the Trifecta tune. If anyone has any idea where I might look that would be appreciated. I'll need engine, all accessories, wiring harness, ECM, sensors, and pedal.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

the cheapest idea is to turbocharge the motor flat out stock. when you get more money and want a great power upgrade take the cylinder head off and open the chambers up (larger cc). put the high pressure springs in and new valves with a performance oriented valve job. if you open the chambers right you will increase head flow so more power from that on its own. larger cc means lower compression and if you install a thicker head gasket to further lower compression you can boost closer to the 15 psi limit which is the premium range of most turbochargers like the gt28 and k04+. cheap upgrade with huge potential due to increased cylinder mass both n/a mode (pre-spool) and boosted.


we will say that a standard head gasket is around .015" thick. that puts compression at the 10.4:1 the factory uses. if you bump the head gasket to .030" alone you land around 10.04:1 (~about) say you milled the deck down to resurface it flat but it didn't remove a whole lot. you will creep up again to around 10.15:1 (~about for a .005" cut). open the chamber another 2 cc's = 9.88 4 cc's = 9.6

so as you can see working a small amount of magic on the cylinder heads and complimenting it with the correct gasket will give you an very desirable compression ratio for boosted applications. i enjoy 9.5 boosted motors because i still get to run pump gas, they make good torque off boost, and with boost i can mild boost levels around 15 psi range without causing to much of a fuss. you want power on a budget play with the cylinder head first, you may never want anything else after its done lol


if i had the true cylinder head cc volume for a stock chamber i could get more accurate than what i provided but what i do have is based off a 70 cc head chamber.

[slowbalt]

There one way around the chipped key... When you add remote start to these vehicles they add a component under the dash that transfers the chip signal to the ignition to trick the bcm into seeing the signal allowing the car to start without the key (kinda)

[cobaltssoverbooster]

yes but when the ecu sees power it still requires a confirmation vin matched signal from the bcm.

[slowbalt]

Im not so sure about that bro my remote start works pretty good you can even drive the car in a straight line just dont hit the brakes or turn or she shuts down, just ask my buddies.haha