First time tuning an E38 from scratch

[bikewiz]

Thanks Hart! I'm a believer in detailed threads with updates and follow-up's to replies. I have threads on other forums I reply to when people comment years later and say they found my thread from a Google search. Good documentation is just another way to pay it forward to everyone else out there.

Ed, I hope you had a great weekend. I'm back to pick your brain again. I played around with the tune on Saturday. I changed the injector data back to stock with the exception of my flow rate table left scaled for 85-lb/hr @58psi. I came out to a car that would start and die or not start at all. I started making adjustments to the cold temps in the idle airflow tables because it was very cold that day. I even tried throwing in the last good tune I had with the incorrect injector data and had the same issue. I put the the tune back in with the correct injector data and wound up having to throttle the pedal to keep the car running. Once I got it running, I logged the lambda error and started making adjustments to the MAF table. It seemed to get better after a few adjustments and my wideband reading started leaning out and getting closer to stoich. I pulled plug #1 and #8, both looked very clean and had no abnormal signs of poor combustion. Frustrated with the car not idling on its own and having a date with my wife to go to the Chicago Auto Show, I called it a day.

Now I'm back out in the garage with ambient temps at 42* as opposed to 15* on Saturday. I tried to fire up the car and still not able to get it to idle on its own. I throttled the pedal to keep it running and get the engine warmed up for a minute or so. Still stalls when ECT above 100*. I made a log of this. Looking at the log, I noticed the MAF Hz not coming down to 0 when the car stalls out. For example, if the car stalls out with the MAF at 2,550Hz, the sensor just hangs at 2,550Hz and throws off my lamba error log. I've attached the current tune and the log from today. Take a look at it and let me know what you see/suggest. I'm really struggling to get this thing to idle properly and feel once I do, things will get much easier.

Thanks Ed!

[HartRod]

Matt - can you post a picture of you air intake tube and your MAF sensor?

[mowton]

Matt, sounds like you went backwards a bit. Changing the injector data to yet another unknown is not the best strategy. Without known good injector data we are shooting in the dark.

Also, need to set the LC-1 to be 9.7 for stoich using the LM Programmer to match what you have set the tune to. Also add MAF Airflow to your config file. You can remove the LTFT and STFT as you are tuning in open loop and a Wide Band.

I'll get back with you tomorrow.

Ed M

[bikewiz]

[bikewiz]

Matt, sounds like you went backwards a bit. Changing the injector data to yet another unknown is not the best strategy. Without known good injector data we are shooting in the dark.

Also, need to set the LC-1 to be 9.7 for stoich using the LM Programmer to match what you have set the tune to. Also add MAF Airflow to your config file. You can remove the LTFT and STFT as you are tuning in open loop and a Wide Band.

I'll get back with you tomorrow.

Ed M

Ed,

I know what you mean about the injector data. However, what am I supposed to do? FAST doesn't supply it and I can't find anybody who has known data for these injectors. The best I can do is start with the known injector data for that injector before FAST modified it and scale the flow rate as I did. I don't know enough about the workings of modified injectors to know how else I should modify the data. What I do know is I started with totally incorrect injector data, and now I have somewhat correct injector data.

I set the LC-1 to 9.7 with the LM Programmer, but the output didn't want to change. So, I just modified my PID command strings to change the value from 14.7 to 9.7.

I've attached the tunes and logs from tonight's tuning session. File names and calibration details describe the files. That MAF Hz hanging when the engine stalls is odd and throws off the counts for the cells unless you stop the log as soon as it stalls.

[bikewiz]

Here are the rest of the files from tonight. I'll make the changes to my config and start logging with the new config.

[HartRod]

Matt - I know this sounds crazy, but just double check that your MAF is not in backwards.

[bikewiz]

It isn't. I welded the bung in the pipe myself. The MAF is labeled which direction it flows and it can only be screwed into the MAF one way. It's physically impossible to install it backwards.

Just for some reassurance, if you google image search a 2010 Camaro cold air kit, all the MAF's are installed the same as mine, with the connector release tab facing up and bung mounted to the front of the car:

[HartRod]

I didn't mean to doubt you or your skills, I just wanted to eliminate that as a possible problem (Lord knows I've seen and done worse, lol!). I think the injector data is your biggest hurdle now. I was having the same problem trying to track down the correct information for my Siemens SD80s. Once I finally got the right data and my exhaust connected, everything else started to fall into place. I know what you mean about updating the threads. I've got a 5 year thread on another board on my truck build......

[bikewiz]

No offense taken dude. Actually, I remember a time when I accidentally installed my SCT BA2400 backwards on my turbo 347ci '95 Mustang after doing some work on it. The car was a crank/no start and I was baffled. Finally came across the MAF installed backwards and just laughed.

It seems like I'm going to have to try and search for someone who has fabricated their own data for these injectors and tuned a car successfully. I guess if you took a running car and swapped these injectors in, it would be easier to create some data for a tune. In my situation, however, I'm taking a build from scratch that wasn't running. I have too many variables and not enough constants. OR..... I start looking for a deal on some ID850s lol.

[HartRod]

No offense taken dude. Actually, I remember a time when I accidentally installed my SCT BA2400 backwards on my turbo 347ci '95 Mustang after doing some work on it. The car was a crank/no start and I was baffled. Finally came across the MAF installed backwards and just laughed.

It seems like I'm going to have to try and search for someone who has fabricated their own data for these injectors and tuned a car successfully. I guess if you took a running car and swapped these injectors in, it would be easier to create some data for a tune. In my situation, however, I'm taking a build from scratch that wasn't running. I have too many variables and not enough constants. OR..... I start looking for a deal on some ID850s lol.

I'm know what you mean Matt, I ran into the same situation with my 68. LS3/TVS1900/Comp Cam/SD80s, and then throw in the 6L80...its been a heck of a journey. I'll be at the one year point in a couple of weeks and still need to get my tune finished....

[bikewiz]

This is from Scott aka soundengineer on LS1tech:

doesnt exist...
you can read teh part # off teh side, and do a google search...
then when you find out the maker of the injector(which is most likely a bosch or a siemens deka injector)
you can search for injector data on their website...

it wont be a GM table you can just enter... but it will give you enough data to get started and fill in some blanks to get in the ballpark

and then you can go in and tune the tables

you have to start with known data, with stock injectors
then you change nothing except for the data in the IFR table, and work around your new injector data that you got from the makers website.

you can get close enough to be a good tune...you wont get perfect without lots of data tests on specialized equipment and them lots of time on a load bearing dyno

That's exactly what I did when I switched to the 2010 Camaro SS LS3 injector data. I talked to my buddy who will tune the car and he knows a few people at FAST, so he's going to make some calls and see if he can't squeeze something out of them. As many people have said before, I doubt they have this info. If they did, why wouldn't they supply it?

[HartRod]

You could possibly try emailing Greg Banish and see if he will take your injectors and create the data.....

[bikewiz]

I can PM him. You remember his user name? Isn't it like "eficalibrator"?

[bikewiz]

That is his user name. I sent him a PM.

[mowton]

Greg will tell you just what I have said and you both obviously know. Injector data is the foundation for a good tune. Personally I would look into replacing the FAST 85's with either Siemans 60's or 80's ($450) but need Greg's first DVD ($250) with the Injector data for several different popular injectors or top of the line ID850 injector (app $800) and all data available for download on their web site. will say have used a shitload of 60's since getting Gregs DVD :-). Its a tough call. I think the 60's would suffice your setups. If you are going to push more than 800 hp at the crank, then you will need the 80's. You could sell the FAST 85s for a couple of dollars to offset the added cost of the new injectors.

In the mean time I will continue to look for data and help wherever I can.

Ed M

[bikewiz]

Ed,

I wound up finding a similar injector from another company that published injector data for their injector. I took the last really good tune I had which I uploaded in post #17 and was based off your suggestions for adjustments and changes. I changed the injector data to the published data I found and the car runs amazing. It starts up really well and needs absolutely no throttling of the pedal. I actually have a log of the car idling for a solid 8 minutes without stalling. The MAF values are still around running me 10-15% rich, but adjustments can be made. I'm so happy with the idle that I'm going to try and perfect the MAF values around idle and continue up the table from there. I figure I can go up to 2500-3k rpm and then just estimate the upper RPM range from there and let my tuner take it from there.

I have to research what the proper way to get e85 stoich out of the LC-1. I have set it up for e85 with the LMProgrammer software, but I'm still reading gasoline on my DB digital gauge and using the provided HPTuners LC-1 PID. Right now I just have the scanner set up with a PID I made to divide the reading by 14.7 to obtain lambda and then I multiply it by 9.7 for e85 values.

What is the next step you recommend after getting the MAF dialed in? Learning EQ<>VE from Bluecat and enable VE?

[mowton]

Ed,

I wound up finding a similar injector from another company that published injector data for their injector. I took the last really good tune I had which I uploaded in post #17 and was based off your suggestions for adjustments and changes. I changed the injector data to the published data I found and the car runs amazing. It starts up really well and needs absolutely no throttling of the pedal. I actually have a log of the car idling for a solid 8 minutes without stalling. The MAF values are still around running me 10-15% rich, but adjustments can be made. I'm so happy with the idle that I'm going to try and perfect the MAF values around idle and continue up the table from there. I figure I can go up to 2500-3k rpm and then just estimate the upper RPM range from there and let my tuner take it from there.

I have to research what the proper way to get e85 stoich out of the LC-1. I have set it up for e85 with the LMProgrammer software, but I'm still reading gasoline on my DB digital gauge and using the provided HPTuners LC-1 PID. Right now I just have the scanner set up with a PID I made to divide the reading by 14.7 to obtain lambda and then I multiply it by 9.7 for e85 values.

What is the next step you recommend after getting the MAF dialed in? Learning EQ<>VE from Bluecat and enable VE?

I responded to your PM before reading this post. I am glad (and learned) that that data worked for your setup. As it is a racecar, I would say you could just leave it in MAF only. Also attached is the screen you should see when you load the LC-1 programming software. Just scroll through the lower right window and go from Gasoline 14.7 to E85 9.7.

Ed M



LC-1 program screen.png

[bikewiz]

I have changed that drop down menu to E85 (9.8) several times and it does nothing. My DB gauge and my HPT PID still read in gasoline scale. I even disconnect the LM-1 programming cable, power down the car, and then re-connect to my laptop to ensure it actually saved the E85 setting in the LM-1. Only thing I haven't tried is removing the program cable and terminator plug from the LM-1 stereo jacks, but I don't think that should affect anything.

Guess I still have some more learning ahead of me :-)

[joecar]

Programming the Stoich AFR in the LC-1 is for the serial comms reporting of AFR... it does not affect the analog voltage output.

If you want to see scantool logged AFR based on E85 stoich, you have to somehow modify the scantool's AFR pid (don't ask me, I don't know how to in HPT).