Professional Tuners. My Bad Experience

[BigDaddyCool]

So I took my car to a place I thought was reputable to fix my mafless drama's because I was tired of plugin away at it. It cost me like $700 roughly and I drove in with as they said 217rwkw on my tune and was only slightly off on my VE table, drove out with only 3kw more despite the mods I have which should support more. I drove out with none of my cold start issues fixed or the drivability problems infact it was worse.

The tuner didn't give a crap. It was in at 9, done by 2. I asked him if he wanted me to put the maf back in incase he needed it as a ref to start, if he needed my stock tune loaded. No no no he said just bring it in and I'll fix it. So I dropped it in, told the guy at reception the stock tune was on a USB stick in the glovebox if he needed to check my tune loaded on the car against it.

He cut timing to the point the car pulsed under wot at lower revs
from not having enough timing, he didn't tune any open loop cold start tables, no IAT tables .... Just did timing, PE and VE. When I asked why the power wasn't where it should be 'oh some cars just don't make power'. Really because everyone else running what I have mate is in the 240-260rwkw range. So I asked the makers of the intake and a few other tuners up where I am.... Told them roughly what's in the tune and everything coming back to me 'it's not right'.

The car is running by my estimation about 100nm of torque short ..... From like 2400-2800rpm upwards across the board.

It pisses me off to know I made a bad decision in who I had tune it. I could take it back to them, but clearly they don't want to know. I told him I should bring it back and let him fix it, he opted to send me an updated tune via email with my suggestions basically .....

But my mafless start issues still exist my cold start drivability and the power is ok with what he did but I know deep down it's ..... Well the numbers don't support the car out it that way.

I won't take the car back to them to fix it because frankly I don't think the guy really knows what he's doing outside doing a damn VE table and running timing against torque to do the timing table on the dyno. I don't think he understands or has enough experience on these v8's.

Disappointed aey. Now now what cost me a pretty penny is going to turn out costing me a fortune all because of some wanker who claims to be a professional.

Pisses me off.

Anyway I've been told by two long know reputable places well known to go see this other mob up where I live which I have seen many people take their commodores to as they are basically commodored specialists with a lot more experience so I'm going to pop down and see them.

Just shows any joe blow company who claims to tune cars can't be trusted, they'll just take your money and make excuses if their poor work doesn't cut it.

This may be nasty by that money it I was to spend it could of done to mods not fixing some idiots claim to know how to tune cars on a professional level.

I tell you what tho, if I have my car done by another place and they do a proper job and it turns out how it should I'm taking this other place to the damn ACCC for basically taking my money and not delivering on their claims.

Over confident under deliver. I won't name and shame their company. I think outside this particular situation they are nice people, I just don't think they have enough experience under their belt to go claiming they can do more then a basic 'fuel adjustment' tune.

Pissed just pissed.

Thoughts?

PS. Sorry about the grama and so on, posting from my iphone

[GPGTP]

Sorry about your bad experience. This right here is the reason I started tuning in the first place. I always say, if it was my hard earned money I would want my tune as good as possible. Some people just don't care about the quality of their work or others...just getting paid.

[SSUte01]

If they were worth their salt they would offer a money back guarantee. I do. About 1 in 6 or perhaps cars I do are re-tunes of so called professionals. The last car, last weekend was a fairly large cammed VE Ute that could barely idle and stalled constantly especially if the ac was on or if the power steering added load. I can't believe people charge $700 for a couple of hours work, it's lawyer or prostitute money. I'm not surprised at your outcome, many either don't know how or don't have the time or don't care and are greedy. There are good operators out there, just got to find them and not believe all the BS on the Internet and paying more doesn't always mean better. I've seen some shocking $1500 tunes.

I would ask for refund less dyno time because they've not delivered at all. If you have a stock cammed car, which I believe you do, you're mad throwing money at "pros" when you have all the time and resources to do a better job than a shop does because you're not limited by time. You have a wideband from previous posts, nail both models independently (MAF and SD) and work on timing. You'll get a better result overall, they may or may not make a kW or two more or less, than a pro because you can spend as much time as it takes and have all the tools required. Throwing money at shops looking for a panacea isn't the answer IMO.

[Bill@HPTuners]

I would ask for refund less dyno time because they've not delivered at all.

Expect to be laughed at, true story. Happened to me too, back in 03/04, bought hpt & didn't look back

[BigDaddyCool]

The problem I have is not really the power output at present, from what he did despite running low dyno numbers the car does seem to haul pretty good......

The problem is 'startup'...... and until the car is warmed it drives like a dog.... Clearly he didn't spend anytime on this. Basically as he told me, with 'newer cars' the rule of thumb is not to touch anything you dont need to. Problem is, after tuning myself for like 5 years as a hobby..... going from MAF to mafless on a pre 2010 VE model is a big deal. Alot of things clearly have to be changed and you can tell by how it drives......

My AFR is way out from startup and takes about 5-10 minutes to settle...... (from a fresh flash.... less from just a normal startup) I know VE heavily relies on MAF for cold start.... take that away, it has to be compensated for.

So now if I leave his tune how it is and just focus on cold start and drivability, this is why I took it to them........ because I dont know 'how to get it right'.

What I did originally is modify my Openloop Gear/PN tables...... to aim for a different target, but I think this was wrong...... I moved onto IVT Gain and that made a difference. So basically I think I did it wrong....... What i'm thinking of doing now is as he did reset the openloop tables (which doesn't work)....... throw my wideband back in and workout 'the difference in AFR' and then multiple my IVT gain by that........ It doesn't have to be perfect clearly, but so long as it's close that should pull cold startup in line and target the AFR the stock requests in openloop.......... and thus should fix ALL of my drivability issues.

The car seems to run fine above about 55'c engine temp, 70'c IVT temp...... apart from a 'pull up later, warm start'........ again AFR is out ..... just seems like the car needs a minute or two to bring AFR's inline no matter when you start it.

Can anyone shed some light on this problem, am I headed towards the the right direction for my way of thinking? The RAMJET's lower RPM/MAP/MAF regions were always short like 30%+ fueling...... which stands to reason my startup would be short too, despite the VE table being right 'which I've already checked is OK'.

[SSUte01]

Expect to be laughed at, true story. Happened to me too, back in 03/04, bought hpt & didn't look back

Probably right, but there's no way I'd ever want an unhappy customer like this case, for pride more than anything.

The problem I have is not really the power output at present, from what he did despite running low dyno numbers the car does seem to haul pretty good......

The problem is 'startup'...... and until the car is warmed it drives like a dog.... Clearly he didn't spend anytime on this. Basically as he told me, with 'newer cars' the rule of thumb is not to touch anything you dont need to. Problem is, after tuning myself for like 5 years as a hobby..... going from MAF to mafless on a pre 2010 VE model is a big deal. Alot of things clearly have to be changed and you can tell by how it drives......

My AFR is way out from startup and takes about 5-10 minutes to settle...... (from a fresh flash.... less from just a normal startup) I know VE heavily relies on MAF for cold start.... take that away, it has to be compensated for.

So now if I leave his tune how it is and just focus on cold start and drivability, this is why I took it to them........ because I dont know 'how to get it right'.

What I did originally is modify my Openloop Gear/PN tables...... to aim for a different target, but I think this was wrong...... I moved onto IVT Gain and that made a difference. So basically I think I did it wrong....... What i'm thinking of doing now is as he did reset the openloop tables (which doesn't work)....... throw my wideband back in and workout 'the difference in AFR' and then multiple my IVT gain by that........ It doesn't have to be perfect clearly, but so long as it's close that should pull cold startup in line and target the AFR the stock requests in openloop.......... and thus should fix ALL of my drivability issues.

The car seems to run fine above about 55'c engine temp, 70'c IVT temp...... apart from a 'pull up later, warm start'........ again AFR is out ..... just seems like the car needs a minute or two to bring AFR's inline no matter when you start it.

Can anyone shed some light on this problem, am I headed towards the the right direction for my way of thinking? The RAMJET's lower RPM/MAP/MAF regions were always short like 30%+ fueling...... which stands to reason my startup would be short too, despite the VE table being right 'which I've already checked is OK'.

How's the IAT sensor represent the actual air temp being ingested by the motor and this is very important when gathering data to tune fuelling. If it isn't somewhat representative, you'll likely have issues with inconsistency.

When you say you're AFR is way out during warmup, what is it? What is timing doing when it 'drives like a dog'. Do you have a cold log with WB, NB, timing (various adders etc), commanded AFR, STFTs, O2 mV, desired idle, rpm, ECT, IAT, ETC%, thats probably it.

[THE CHAD]

I am tuning my own cars/ mates cars/hiring dyno at moment and will be buying a dyno this year to branch out on my own and I am in the same opinion as GPGTP ....I spent a lot of money on tuning/mods $4000 tuning fees at a WELL KNOWN SHOP in PERTH and was not very happy with the last tune and the attitude I got considering I spent in excess of $10,000 and with me I am BRUTAL so I only give 1 CHANCE to do the job properely and if they fail that's it see you later my car is my BABY so I decided to do all of the work myself because I don't care what anyone says others wont tune (I reckon) your car like you can because of LEGAL issues they will have it on the CONSERV side as apposed to the RAGGERED edge side ...My approach is to tune to the best of my ability and 110% all the time keep the CUSTOMER happy cause if you don't you will not have CUSTOMERS very long and you will not be in BUSINESS very long plus I like to sleep at night, hehe, you do a good job/ and have TRUE POWER FIGURES and those CUSTOMERS go to their mates and next minute you have more work etc....sorry to hear your not happy but if you must go back and have a chat and tell em your issues good luck mate I feel for you

[Frost]

... I can't believe people charge $700 for a couple of hours work, it's lawyer or prostitute money. .....

What kind of magic hookers do you guys have down under??? They better be SUPER awesome

[THE CHAD]

some charge approx for LS1 STD ENGINE $700 MAFLESS MAN/$800 AUTO CAM $990 BOOSTED $1200 6LTR STD $950-$990 CAM $1090-$1250 a lot of money to spend if you aint happy TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT UP IN THE POWER FIGURE STAKES , IE YOU CAN MAKE THE DYNO READ WHATEVER YOU WANT, SO SOME DYNO FIGURES/CARS I HAVE SEEN AND RACED AT THE DRAGS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THESE FIGURES IE 20-40RWHP MORE THAN MINE AND YET I RUN 4-5 MPH FASTER THAN THEM OR WHAT THEY SHOULD RUN AND THEY DONT GET IT....I HAVE FOUND THAT SOME PUSH OUT FALSE FIGURES JUST SO THOSE CUSTOMERS GO TO THEIR MATES AND SHOW EM THEIR CAM ONLY AND I MEAN CAM ONLY/SPRINGS NOT MANIFOLD AND THE REST LS1 MAKES 410-430 RWHP YEAH RIGHT AND THEY ARE RUNNING 11.70-11.80 WHICH WITH THAT FIGURE SHOULD BE 11.10 AT LEAST SET UP CORRECTLY AND BANG THEY GET MORE WORK THAN THE HONEST GUY/DYNO DUDE....SO IF THEY DONT LIKE THE HONEST WORK I DONT CARE ATLEAST I AM HONEST AND LIKE TO HELP/ASSIST AND TRULY CARE FOR THE CUSTOMERS RIDE CAUSE IF THEY ARENT HAPPY I AINT HAPPY...THANKS FOR MY WHINGING TIME HEHE THESE ARE APPROX I HAVE SEEN/FOUND (TRUE DYNO/NO TEMP PROBE/STRAPPED DOWN HARD) LS1 BOLT-ONS ETC AUTO 205RWKW-215RWKW/ MAN 217RWKW-225RWKW/ CAM ONLY 250RWKW-265RWKW AUTO/ MAN 267RWKW-280RWKW LS2 BOLT-ONS ETC 220RWKW-230RWKW AUTO VE L76/L98 BOLT-ONS AUTO 228RWKW-240RWKW LS3 BOLT-ONS 250RWKW AUTO ETC..... TEMP PROBE MMM DONT LIKE IT

[SSUte01]

What kind of magic hookers do you guys have down under??? They better be SUPER awesome

Ha - high cost of living in Aus I guess. Tuning prices here make hookers look cheap.

[Eric@HPTuners]

This is by definition the difference between a real tuner and a tooner. He was only concerned with making power, which he failed at. That is the absolute easiest thing to do when tuning. He took no time to actually calibrate the car properly, and most likely doesn't know how.

Having a dyno and tuning software does not make one a tuner.

[BigDaddyCool]

This is by definition the difference between a real tuner and a tooner. He was only concerned with making power, which he failed at. That is the absolute easiest thing to do when tuning. He took no time to actually calibrate the car properly, and most likely doesn't know how.

Having a dyno and tuning software does not make one a tuner.

Spot On. The VERY least a dyno tuner should do is get the power out of the car all other cars make with the same mods and if you cant even do that as a so called proper dyno tuner really why are you in business at all?

After spending a week or so looking at his tune, I suspect half of his problem is bringing on fueling at such low throttle it brings on knock and he just kept removing it until it stopped. There is a reason the factory runs the TPS settings they do for PE ......

Anyway, I'll mess about with it until I get it sorted. Honestly I cant be f.d going back to that guy......... he's a tool, thinks he knows what he's doing and claims his mistakes are because he's so busy.....

Even if he offered to fix my problems for free...... I wouln't take it back, thats just how pissed off I am. I really don't believe he has a frig-in clue aey. I feel sorry for everyone who's gone to that place and drove out 20-40kw lower then they should have with crap drive ability. If he's done good tunes it's best the factory setup helped cover his lack ofs.

Getting power out of a car on a bloody dyno is not exactly rocket science now is it....... add/remove timing, add/remove fuel...... if course if you only spend like 3-5 hours on someone's car and have to do a mafless ve table and make all the mistakes he did really it's no wonder he couldnt get the power from it, didnt bother spending the time to.

Whats worse is there's like this random dip on the dyno sheet at the end of the run that frankly could take 5-10 mins to fix... and that along probably would of gained 5kw... on the run. I'll post a pic hey.

[BigDaddyCool]

And here's the dyno sheet.

Some serious lessons learned here. Perhaps in future I will just hire a dyno for a day and do it all myself. It aint rocket science. Check out the 5300-5500rpm spot...... on the slip side of the dyno sheet that shows the AFR, it leans out in that spot where it drops power at that point.

[ptharris]

Thats well down on power mate, id talk to them nicely and see if you can get it back on the dyno and rectify the isssue

Heres a VE SSV ute with only Xforce catbak and X-air otr, 95 octane we did

Boyd VE SSV Ute Xforce exhaust final tune.jpg

And another with X-air OTR, Coby catback exhaust and 91 octane fuel
Mark VE SS.jpg

VF SSV ute with X-air OTR, Xforce catback, 95 octane
Phil VF SSV Ute.jpg

[BigDaddyCool]

Thats well down on power mate, id talk to them nicely and see if you can get it back on the dyno and rectify the isssue

Heres a VE SSV ute with only Xforce catbak and X-air otr, 95 octane we did

Boyd VE SSV Ute Xforce exhaust final tune.jpg

And another with X-air OTR, Coby catback exhaust and 91 octane fuel
Mark VE SS.jpg

VF SSV ute with X-air OTR, Xforce catback, 95 octane
Phil VF SSV Ute.jpg

Like I said I aint going back, the guy has no f'in idea what he is doing clearly........ you'd run his timing with a turbo, not a NA based car... being down like 6-8 degrees of timing from a stock setup...... of course you'll loose power. I recon I'm missing like 40+ kw of power..... and damn near 100nm of torque across the board. I might ring another company up here in Brisbane two other well known places have recommended to me from around Australia, they seem to putout the figures all the other ones do. I'll ask them how much for a touch up .... and explain the issue.

[THE CHAD]

that's a hub dyno isn't it....no offense mate but approx. 270rwkw with cat back not on dyno I use...a typical STOCK LS3 with twin 3'', long tube 1 3/4'' headers 4into1, OTR, and mafless tune produce around 370rwhp(275.91rwkw).....BIG DADDYCOOL I wonder why there aint a before /after run and where is the shootout info and have a look at the power/torque under the curve and also the slight dips in the upper rev range...just my opinion mate ...see the POWER ARGUMENTS AGAIN, BOYS IT AINT ALWAYS ABOUT THE END POWER FIGURE BUT THE POWER UNDER THE CURVE , POWER KEEPS YOU THERE BUT TORQUE GETS YOU THERE, AND MY DYNO FIGURES ETC ARE JUST MY OPINION AND WHAT THE POWER FIGURES I SEE...

[BigDaddyCool]

that's a hub dyno isn't it....no offense mate but approx. 270rwkw with cat back not on dyno I use...a typical STOCK LS3 with twin 3'', long tube 1 3/4'' headers 4into1, OTR, and mafless tune produce around 370rwhp(275.91rwkw).....BIG DADDYCOOL I wonder why there aint a before /after run and where is the shootout info and have a look at the power/torque under the curve and also the slight dips in the upper rev range...just my opinion mate ...see the POWER ARGUMENTS AGAIN, BOYS IT AINT ALWAYS ABOUT THE END POWER FIGURE BUT THE POWER UNDER THE CURVE , POWER KEEPS YOU THERE BUT TORQUE GETS YOU THERE, AND MY DYNO FIGURES ETC ARE JUST MY OPINION AND WHAT THE POWER FIGURES I SEE...

There is no torque or power...... Whats interesting is VCM scanner logs 'Delivered NM' and my logs of his tune match the dyno torque ..... So if his tune reports the same numbers as my logs etc........ I can tell you for a fact I've had the car running 590-610nm on the vcm scanner as opposite to his maximum 480nm ive seen.........

My cars averages on my tunes 510nm-550nm according to vcm scanner which i now think is pretty darn accurate.

VCM Scanner:

Professional Tuner: Max output logged 460-480nm and runs off the higher the revs go.
My Tunes: 510-590nm...... averages 550ish at peak torque around 4000-4500rpm.

Numbers dont lie and no before dyno run sheet............ begs the question, WTF?!

[THE CHAD]

yeah mate very interesting dude,, i know what i would do but it wouldn't be legal hehe, that's why i tune my car not anybody else i DONT TRUST NO-ONE and plus no-one could tune my car my way like me that's for sure, its sad that you have to deal with these people mate but this country is full of DISHONEST PEOPLE and unfortunate for yourself you have found out the BAD way so good luck mate....PS it aint just the little shop that does some DODGY work , JUST CAUSE THEY HAVE A TRADE DOESN'T MEAN THEIR ANYGOOD , I speak for myself I don't have a mechanics trade but I have been around building cars/engines/trans/diffs since I was 6years old etc and I could go head to head with a TRADIE ie (mechanic) in building/tuning a engine in X amount of time.... I am extremely fussy and double/triple check everything,,, the only reason I didn't become a mechanic was my father was and he talked me out of it due to the fact that being a mechanic you really don't earn S....heaps and the only way you would is if you owned the place yourself....

[MMGT1]

Took me a day to undo a bad PE Tune from your "area". Took me three weeks to undo the rest. PE is the easiest part of a tune, if you can't do that then you need to reconsider the avenue you've gone down. I didn't really know what a raped tune was until this. I had herd the term, thought I had an idea, but this really showed me how bad things can be. I would never come in here and sling shit at anyone, I'm just an enthusiast tuner. I do just do a couple here and there for guys in my car club and close friends. What I just experienced was out of this world bad. I learned some pretty good lessons along the way although. I say, if you were to get serious and do this tune yourself, you will go on a learning curve that will blow you away. Undoing a bad tune has taught me more in a month than I have learned in 8+ years of tinkering with this stuff. It has definitely stepped my abilities up to the next level of understanding in how, why and when these systems do what they do. I also realized that you can take the classes, read the books, and watch the videos, but until you go through something like this you are not in the game... your just not. Because having the ability to identify the bad is just going to make you that much better.
Now this leads me to another point, big tuning shops and my problem with them. You booked a tune for x amount of dollars. Well, so did the next guy... They have a window that they will allot for you, and you need to be the hell out for the tune coming behind or they are out lets say a thousand bucks and they are not going to let that happen. They are going to fudge some shit together and get you the hell out and hopefully you are not educated enough that you will go on your merry way not having any idea how messed up your shit is! They have overhead, they have big overhead! There is no way one of those shops is going to take the time to do it right, if they did, the doors would be closed in a week. I know there are some next level guys out there that could look at your tune and before even turning the key can nail every single thing it needs before even hitting the rollers... but those are very few and far between it seems. Your experience is case and point! And good luck identifying one because you don't know, you just don't! Everyone talks a big game to get your money man, bottom line. Find someone with passion for the game, now that is what your looking for, not the big talker... that you can identify. Passion for the game sticks out like a five dollar hooker in church

[BigDaddyCool]

I did learn some stuff....... and I know where my power lies and how to make it..... it's always just a matter of how you get there and how quickly in terms of drive ability.

With all my knowledge and logs I've done from widebands and previous fuel/timing/tps maf and mafless setups I just rewrote an entire tune in about 15-20 minutes that should basically produce as you say 'the money' before hitting the rollers'

What i sent the car in with was a cautious tune........ which as he said produced 217rwkw despite not supplying the before sheet.... which i expected it would run around, as i always say 'numbers dont lie' you can workout what your car should make power wise on a dyno even before you take it in via various logs and maths.

What I will do is post up a log of driving this guys tune in a day or two, vs the 20 min tune I just wrote myself.....

The way I think is this..... when it comes to making power you have only three options:

1. Less timing and less fuel = more grip and better response but nowhere to go in terms of getting maximum power (there will always be more to had)
2. Power costs money.... A bit of drivability, a bit of wheel spin, a bit of fuel..... and a bit more timing.
3. Slower power or faster...... building power or flat line a lower number sooner....

The overall goal is simple to make those rpm's climb as fast as possible to get to the next gear.

Dyno numbers may mean nothing as people say......... after this experience I think they mean everything........ low numbers = low ability. High numbers = a tuner who knows how to extract the power........ If a dyno tuner can extract a good number more then likely they have decent understanding of 'being a dyno guy'.

I told my partner there is only one way to prove a point...... Dyno numbers, tunes....... whatever, 0-100 or 1/4 mile are the only ways to test true tunes......

If this guys tune is as crap as I think it is, I think my car would be a whole second slower 0-100. Just a guestimate, I didnt run the numbers...

I did this because I had never taken my car to a tuner yet..... I wanted to find out if they'd sort my issues out for me and just generally fix some things up, I never expected to learn while they may know a little more....... just how bad the experience could be. I'm not saying all places are like this but as you say, they are a business...... my car in, out then the next and so on.

But what gets me is how I queried him like three times about the dyno number and he said 'some cars just don't make power'. Well I guess that's why I spent the money to ensure it made a set number you couldn't get with the supporting mods?

I have a point to prove........ Once I'm done I'll get my car redyno'd and walk into their business and say well........ funny how my car 'just couldn't make power'.

If I can pull 40kw more then this bloke... I will shame their company....... because if "I" could get 40kw above a professional tuner from a 'tune' they should not be in business and I think everybody would agree. 40kw is a tall order.......

If I dont meet it so be it..... But personally I think I can get to 270rwkw. Big numbers but intend to put my money where my mouth is to make a point.