06 LSJ idle hunt

[PyroMechanic]

Hey guys. So Im new to tuning, Ive been tuning for about 2 months. Ive read a lot on here, and help forums on the redline forums and cobaltss.net. I have 2 tuning books as well. I feel like Im doing a great job tuning, but idle cannot stay steady. Car is a 2006 Ion Redline. My mods are : K&N typhoon, ZZP s3 h/e, dual pass, zzp midlength header/catted downpipe, zzp 2.5 catback, AEM wideband, full bwoody mounts, gmpp clutch, 60's, 2.8", HP tuned, 2 step colder plugs, phenolic spacer, stainless brake lines, lnf shifter bracket, B&M short shifter, E85, LS4 TB. I bought a ZZP tune in the summer for my 60's on gas, and I used HPT to drop down to the 2.8, run on e85, and ls4 tb. I have logs to show what is going on. I have a AEM wideband, but I do not have the pro HPT so it is not logging, I usually just do short pulls and remember what the AFR is. Anyways, here are the problems:

As soon as I start the car, if engine is below 50* it isn't really a problem, but every other temp it is. Idle is nuts, goes anywhere from 400-2k rpm. I have tried everything, you can name it, I have done it. The idle hunt happened when I was stock, but not as bad at all, when I was on gas, on stock tb, etc. I even read knock at idle when the car adds timing to kick the idle back up! I have reduced timing everywhere, and I still get knock, im starting to think its false, perhaps because of my mounts. Anyways, idle does get normal after about 2 minutes of letting the thing do whatever. I don't let it do that though because, knock. When I turn off closed loop, reset trims, turn off short term, etc, the car can fix itself in about 30, but still reads knock.

Thanks for whoever responds! Appreciate it!

[jp1600]

There are just so many problems that you need to fix, if you want to pm me and ill whip something up for you.

[PyroMechanic]

What do I need to fix? Im willing to do whatever. I have already replaced coils, plugs, obviously has new clean tb, MAF has been cleaned, if anything Im already leaning towards a bad o2 sensor, tried seafoaming, I cant seem to do it properly.

[jp1600]

Nothing is wrong with the car, timing table is really bad, torque management needs to be worked on, havent even looked at the ve table, a/f ratio is off, youre prolly running scary rich at wot (didnt see a wb). Looked at the ve table, which is terribly off. Pm me

Edit, just looked at your maf table, you are running scary lean, that is why your idcs are so low. Dont go wot

[jp1600]

And you changed things that dont need to be changed, and messed a few up

[cobaltssoverbooster]

9.85 should be your stoich value to get a decent start.
set your pe value to 1.300 and that will give you a 7.568 afr target.
if your gauge didnt get rescaled from gas to ethanol E85 then you will be in the 11.1-11.2 afr range on your gauge. hope that helps.

[PyroMechanic]

Ive read everywhere that a wideband doesn't care what gas you run, it just reads stoich and displays it like it is regular gas, therefore I read the wideband like normal. Right now in ohio, e85 is more like e75, that's why I put stoich to 10.5. I had it at 9.899 before, it was real bad, at wot, wideband read too rich. And a lot of these tables haven't even been touched, I bought a ZZP tune and most of these things are from that, I just adjusted for e85, ls4 tb, and a 2.8. I don't go WOT very often.. My MAF table was given to me by ZZP for my typhoon intake. And alright ill PM.

[PyroMechanic]

If its really that bad, I can run down my e85, and get back on gas. But most of those tables were from ZZP.. Of course I have changed timing, I don't see much knock anywhere, except at idle, or .08ish g/cyl.

[jp1600]

Your timing should move down from tip in to peak torque. From personal observation, when you hit the gas the map value moves from .32/.28 to whatever depending on how hard you hit the gas. So from that point your "hill" on the table should move down towards your wot values. As rpms increase your timing should also increase keeping your timing moving upward as yourrpms increase. Your timing table "hill" starts t ramp down at like .60 and deviates horribly from the stock table.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

if you got a gauge it came with paper showing the afr ranges er voltage feedback. Should be rescaling for E85 but the best way is to switch it to lambda mode but you will have to change your histograms to retain the copy and paste tuning function.

[PyroMechanic]

Oh, youre just talking about timing, yeah, I noticed the hill needed to be moved, since I was only getting about 20ish degrees at wot, could be more. Didn't quite know how to do it, that wasn't my first priority though, the idle needed to be fixed the most. Ive tried so many variations of stoich values, VE values in the idle range, idle timing, all timing that might get involved with idle I removed, etc..

And cobaltss, do you mean my wideband? Yes it came with a paper talking about the dial in the back, but all that does is just display lamda in a different stoich based on what you want, so technically my wideband is fine, I am just supposed to read it just like I was running gas. But I am open to trying it.

[PyroMechanic]

Jp, you said something about torque management needing to be looked at. That made me really curious, I never touched torque management, so whatever ZZP gave me, is what my e85 tune has. Should I test different variations of torque management? Perhaps that is why my idle cant stay still.

And fyi, Im not worried about my spark timing too much, I know how to play with that and get good results, im more focused on my horrid idle. lol

And I really appreciate everyones responses!

[jp1600]

i was just saying in reference, I only saw a few differences, but our tqm is worthless on the lsj. As for your timing table, change it, it deviates terribly from the torque curve, and that is why you are getting knock, as for the idle, well its gonna suck, best way to get it to suck less, is to get your fueling as close as possible at idle, and that will help, once the trims learn for that it should calm down a little.

Edit: oh god, always forgetting things, change your plugs, they are too cold. Use either 1 step colder or stock heat range. And raise your idle timing to 10, these things should smooth it out a little. Finally your area scaler needs to be adjusted for your throttle body, missed that, my bad there.

[jp1600]

for the wb, he is talking about logging using your a/f ratio error %, because your commanded is different than stoich, values wont match up

[cobaltssoverbooster]

The paper tells you info to help calculate the correct sweep in the scanner. I'd switch gage to lambda output and recalibrate afr value in the scanner.

[GM COBALT SC SS]

Are you logging idcs with the default pid? Because if so, your injectors probably are to small. The default idc parameter is incorrect for 4 cyl. I don't have my laptop on me, so I can't tell you the correct function off of the top of my head, but if you are seeing 60% idc on the default parameter, you're actually getting double that.

I'm on pump gas and see idcs in the high 60s with a 2.8 and 60# injectors

[PyroMechanic]

Alright, so I will be getting new plugs, idk when but soon. And I used the default PID. Idk where to get one for our LSJ. And my wideband is fine.. I just need to read it like I am running gas. The values will be wrong, but they are proportionally correct to e85 burning stoich, in this case, e75, about 10.39. If I were wrong, my engine wouldn't be running right now. Cause running 11.5, compared to 10.39 is leaner than 16's on gas, and no one would run 16 afr WOT on gas.

Id really like to know where, or how to get a correct PID for my car.

edit: Or I should say, the correct configuration for the scanner on an lsj.

[PyroMechanic]

e85log35.hpl

This is my most recent log. I let it idle a lot in this, and also, it shows the knock that I was talking about.

And a follow up to the IDC's that I should be seeing. I actually hit 6.4k rpm today, in first, letting the tires spin, bounced off 1st gear rev limiter once or twice at 6.5k. I saw 89% IDC. So that means my PID for IDC's has to be right..

I am beginning to think the spark timing at idle is what is causing the intense idle hunt. Because when I had spark idle for all values at 8, the car caught itself an began idling okay without any KR. It was using values around 5* though. And now, in this log, I have spark at 10* on all values in the table, and KR is everywhere and idle is getting worse. Therefore, someone think that maybe having too high spark at idle is causing rpms to rev too high, spark over adjusts, it falls, and then adds too much spark, making KR..etc? I like to think out loud lol. So I will try idle spark at 4* tomorrow.. if that doesn't work, I have nooo idea.

Edit: the tune that is attached to this comment has not been on the car yet, it was the one that I was going to try tomorrow.

[PyroMechanic]

Idk what to do.. The only other thing for me to do is try different spark plugs. Besides that, my car is not idling. And it is getting worse. Like knock is getting bad, values above 6 are seen. NO MATTER WHAT I DO. I dropped spark at idle all to 4.. Put them all to 14, 21 was the highest I put it to. I even said screw it, let the thing try idling at whatever rpm, so I made the values in the overspeed spark remover table to 0. Engine still bogs! And gets knock! I made the other table for underspeed, 0 as well.. Got 8* of knock. Im going to fuck my engine up and I do not have any control over it. Wtf is going on. I can name more things I have done.. and it took a nice chunk of time too. Change one damn value and wait 5 minutes for hpt to upload. Then do it all over again. I need people to give me something to look for.. Perhaps alternator is creating too much drag on the engine? EGR opening and closing, dumping too much crap in the intake? I cleaned the maf, unplugged it, had maf values used at idle, and then not. TB was changed.. Fuel trims are within +-2% at idle!

[jp1600]

We tried alot of different things, more than likely its a mechanical problem, i would start looking at sensors and put the stock tb on until you figure the problem out