80lb Injector LSJ question

[lwrs10]

I'm not sure what you mean by not set up right for a lSJ was i missing something ?(minus the injector histograms). The only thing i set up and were primarily using was the MAF vs AFR error%, the last two histos were experiments and not used for tuning. all the other histos were set up out of the box from HP i just changed the pids to the correct one for the car lol. And what i see on the wideband matched whats recorded in VCM. (give or take a few points)

Here's a log from the other night on the tune i had been working on using the omega numbers . my trims while not perfect are fairly low. (dfco is on so the numbers are a little skewed)

I appreciate the help,but i think i'm just gonna stick with what i have. My original questing was about the Cyl Airmass shift that happens when tuning the maf, iv been looking at other tunes and see that it is common, even with your numbers i had to re-cal the maf enough to cause a significant shift. (although the shift was slightly less is some areas )
There should probably be a warning somewhere about it and how it can cause the ecm to command some pretty aggressive timing.

I am however very interested in building a better data base for the community, when time allows(and its not so damn hot out in Florida) i would like to revisit this ,i certainly don't running some things threw my car for the sake up experimentation. Its just like i said before , i have a tune that works great my only concern was if the CylAir change was normal.

Your trims are still very far off, over +20 in a lot of areas. If you add the trims to the chart you can see how much they are swinging. To get it all in line you need to turn off your long term fuel trims and setup your MAF histogram to use STFT. You simply cannot tune these cars off LTFT.

Or even better, turn off fuel trims all together and use your wideband to tune. This is the best and faster way to do it.

[antonio321]

I can only guess that there must be something wrong with one ours configs. the only tuning i have done has been MAF vs AFR error, when i tuned it everything that needed to be disabled was disabled. the log i last posted was seeing how well everything played together with all the modifiers and whatnot active.

But i don't see anything over or close to an average of 20/-20, Now i did see STFT peaks that high during deceleration and some transitions. but like i said dfco and everything else is active
FT vs Maf Freq.

[lwrs10]

What i am trying to say is that you have LTFT and STFT on, and you cannot tune with AFR error with any fuel trims on. The fuel trims will always try to correct to 0. You either tune off STFT(NEVER LTFT), or disable trims then use the wideband. And I am looking at your STFT.....they are all over the place. The short terms are what you want to look at to tell the quality of your tune.

The last log you posted had STFT bouncing +-20. Simply put, that is terrible.

If you would like to iron all of this out and make your tune right, let me know and I will assist further.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

you only tune with the afr error method when tuning wot. everything else in the lsj is trim based. if you tune via afr error and the computer trims dont agree the computer will always trump your afr error calibration outside of wot.

also to be able to tune ve base and maf you must have the defco off. the defco just shuts the fuel off their really isnt much calibration to it. if you leave it on when it goes lean because it shut the fuel off you will be using the lean condition as a part of your averaged data and it throws it off by a lot. all your doing now is chasing your tail around and around.

shut defco off, shut pe off, disable piston protection, shut maf off, calibrate ve base using trims only then work on your injectors. once you got them locked down through the multiplier tables your having problems with now you can add 10% fuel to the entire ve table and your trims will verify your corrections by coming back as -10 fuel trims. return to your base before the 10% and move on with the rest of the tuning.

[lwrs10]

You can tune with a wideband instead of trims. Just set up your wideband pid so it matches your trims. Wideband is a much better way to do it because it reacts much faster and the only place a narrowband is accurate is right at stoich.

[antonio321]

Ok...what im trying to say is that i know that.
2. i wasn't using this tune for tuning, this tune was after i had finished doing the maf freq vs afr tuning. (see the first tune i posted that is the base file i used/use when doing any tuning. )
3.the second file i posted (maf.tuned ) is the same file above but with trims and everything but piston protection turned on ,this was done just for the sake of seeing how everything worked together. at this point i noticed knock, i wondered why, looked at the log and saw that the car was commanding 23+ degrees of timing advance. i discovered it was because the Maf was scaled enough to skew the cyl air mass calculations...at this point i decided to hold off of tuning anything else until i found out if this was normal. (i snooped around and downloaded every large injector LSJ file i could find,airmass shift seems to be the norm)

4.my STFT ,i haven tried to tune them yet,iv only done afr error % maf tuing , maybe im wrong , but it looks all those events you say are +-20 have low hit counts, also if you look at the chart and pay attention to TPS ,vheicle speed,Wideband (try using lc-1 pid) you will see that any of thoes high values correlate with coming off dfco or sharp throttle changes . the car runs at a stable 14.5-15.1 when cursing ,when i filter out any cells with less than 10 hits,i dont see anything over an average +-9 with most of the chart no more than +-4 ,i know its not great ,but its also not my concern at the moment.
i guess what im getting at is,i don't think its that bad considering that i haven't attempted to bring it in closer, and the trims and everything else is active.

STFT with cells less than 10 hits filtered out.


STFT VS MAF Freq

[cobaltssoverbooster]

And what I'm saying is your not going to know that until you turn that shit off to verify the base. Just because it works good with all the multipliers doesn't mean the base is good. You coul be band aiding the shit out of your trims with modifiers active.

I'm not trying to argue but saying its close with all the extras on doesn't mean anything until you can say the base is locked down.

[antonio321]

And what I'm saying is your not going to know that until you turn that shit off to verify the base. Just because it works good with all the multipliers doesn't mean the base is good. You coul be band aiding the shit out of your trims with modifiers active.

I'm not trying to argue but saying its close with all the extras on doesn't mean anything until you can say the base is locked down.

The last post really wasn't addressed to you. And furthermore how many times do i have to say that I understand what you guys are saying. But I’m not here for help with the trims or dialing in the afr. My original question was about cly air mass shift when re scaling/ calibrating the maf with larger injectors

THE only calibrating i have done has been MAF freq vs AFR error % using the first file i posted...if you open it and look at it , you will see that everything you are telling me to turn off is already off.I was not going to move on to any fine tuning until i got an answer to my original question, after i got no straight answer, i continued with calibrating the MAF using my wideband with the first file i posted, i may go back try the fuel trim method for the sake of verification, the only reason i keep countering is because I do not see the same thing lwrs is talking about in my scan, when i look at my histo i do not see any cells that are +-20 hence why i posted the screenshots of what I’m looking at. I am in agreement that the trims need work, I’m totally not arguing that, but that's not why i started this thread, I’ve read countless how to's on the process.

My only real questing was if seeing a g/cly shift from .96-1.04 to .88-.96 was typical when adding larger injectors , my logic is that it shouldn't happen if the injectors are set up right, yet I see the same shift with both sets of numbers in the top end. Also after looking at other large injector lsj tunes and I see MAF curves that are similar to my results and the scans show the similar peak g/cyl. So I carried on and adjusted the spark table to reflect the new peak g/cly to stop it from commanding crazy timing. 2 pages and no one touched on my original question... it’s been a long day I’m gonna step away from the keyboard, apparently I have some time off since the government can’t get its shit straight all non essential NASA employees are on furlough till further notice …so I guess I’ll have some time figure it all out.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

i did come a tad late to the party so i do apologize for miss-reading the information posted. i thought you were looking to tune the injector multipliers. when you tune for larger injectors before all the base data is correctly filled out yes you will see a cyl air-mass shift. this is due to the maf being calibrated heavily to make up for the new fuel flow. once the ecu knows exactly what injectors you have installed, it will make its way back as the maf and base ve come to the correct values. with larger injectors i have seen shifts in both directions. some people throw the injectors on with tvs blowers and get air-mass values off the axis labels and others get smaller values by improperly calibrating the base system on a setup where just the injectors got changed.

in short if the injectors data is calibrated correctly the maf falls into a very similar calibration if only the injectors are changed. the number for air-mass will get close to before once that step is completed. the change is a normal condition.
did i get it this time?

[antonio321]

Thank you. lol

[cobaltssoverbooster]

sorry i struggled there sometimes i get it right away sometimes i read it all wrong.

[antonio321]

sorry i struggled there sometimes i get it right away sometimes i read it all wrong.

It's all good. I guess my next step would be to start from square one and attempt to correct the injector flow data first ,then move on to the maf. Looking the config lwrs posted it looks like that shouldn't be too difficult ...knock on wood.

[army_greywolf]

and this is why i prefer injector dynamics, by far it was easier to tune. I was unable to get 80s to idle clean without a return style system, some have I have not. I can get pulse width down to 1.1, it idles, but it dies too often on decel.

[antonio321]

and this is why i prefer injector dynamics, by far it was easier to tune. I was unable to get 80s to idle clean without a return style system, some have I have not. I can get pulse width down to 1.1, it idles, but it dies too often on decel.

Yeah i read about ID after i had ordered my mototrons...maybe i'll switch at some point, but im starting to loose interest in my lsj lol. I'v gotten a clean idle, minor afr shift when the car is hot, rpm doesn't change, but you can hear a change as it leans out then comes back.

Also i discovered i had an exhaust leak , my wrapped pacesetter had cracked in at lest 3 places around the collector ...so that might explain the leaning out i was seeing at wot lol

[omega_5]

I'm just going to jump in here and address a certain issue I noticed; tuning by trims.
People need to understand what each trim does before making their own set of 'rules' about tuning by trims.

Either log both LTFT and STFT and let them balance between tuning runs, OR completely turn off LTFT (in the tune, not just stop logging) and reset the trims before starting to tune. You don't want to leave out a valuable piece of information.