E85 and the Borg Warner 6758 EFR (ZFR) turbo..how to run E85 with stock FUEL system!?

[wgr73]

Guys,

What do I need to do to my fueling system to run this turbo on E85? ...or (E47.5). Seems like most run out of fuel on the stock turbo, couldn't imagine how easily they'd run out of fuel on the EFR. Do I add this 5th injector kit to the car? (http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/...ontroller.aspx)

Seems like there aren't many options in upgrading the fuel system, no bigger injectors or anything. Help would be greatly appreciated!

[Iam Broke]

Some use the ZZP 5th injector with varying results. Placing it in the purge sol hole isn't optimum location. Big turbo you will outflow the low pressure fuel pump with it spraying also on E85

Consider E30 or E47, perhaps Cobaltoverbooster knows if larger injectors are available, HP fuel pump also.

Are you the gent Term2 (David) is helping on CSS? There is a current thread with debate in the LNF Performance section.

[wgr73]

Thanks dude. I'm sorry, I say E85 meaning E47.5. I figured E85/E47/E30 would be too much for the stock fuel system. I see these guys running 10.9x @ 133mph on big turbos and I'm wondering how they are doing it. Maybe in these cars they use C16 or some other race gas vs using E85.

Here's the deal: I have an STi. Im helping a friend tune his Cobalt SS LNF. E85 for my Subaru is easy, however dealing with DI is very different. I also love the fact that the car is in closed loop the whole time So easy to tune versus my STi.

So no, I'm not the guy who David is helping, though I wish I was

[Iam Broke]

Mix up some E47 & log your HP fuel pump pressure doing some pulls. Watch IDC also.

As you run out of fuel IDC climbs and HPFP pressure drops. Hard to guess the limit on your setup, never tuned one. Opening up the injection window helps a bit.

Stock turbo at 24psi I ran out of fuel around 70% E. (~360 whp, 410 wtq) Injector window misfire, low HPFP pressure & pops a CEL & limp mode.

[wgr73]

Mix up some E47 & log your HP fuel pump pressure doing some pulls. Watch IDC also.

As you run out of fuel IDC climbs and HPFP pressure drops. Hard to guess the limit on your setup, never tuned one. Opening up the injection window helps a bit.

Stock turbo at 24psi I ran out of fuel around 70% E. (~360 whp, 410 wtq) Injector window misfire, low HPFP pressure & pops a CEL & limp mode.

I just read a lot of your research, super super helpful! His goal on the stock turbo is to max it out. Right now he's trapping 102.5mph (4500ft elevation) which is on par with the 109mph traps I see at sea level. I think the tune is pretty solid :P

Hoping to trap 112-114mph after the E47 tune. We'll see, need more traction!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

larger injectors are available through the dealer listed under the buick regal turbo editions. they will require fueling calibration on the standard lnf ecu's.
with the camshaft upgrades in the rebuild an20 series motors these work fine. since the original cam hpfp profile didn't have ethanol fuels in mind i don't believe they will be of any help. (the fuel pump lobe will still be the major factor as the injectors are only a minor update change)

best with a factory genuine lnf to run the 5th setup as it will cost you less than buying new cams and injector rail assembly.

[wgr73]

larger injectors are available through the dealer listed under the buick regal turbo editions. they will require fueling calibration on the standard lnf ecu's.
with the camshaft upgrades in the rebuild an20 series motors these work fine. since the original cam hpfp profile didn't have ethanol fuels in mind i don't believe they will be of any help. (the fuel pump lobe will still be the major factor as the injectors are only a minor update change)


best with a factory genuine lnf to run the 5th setup as it will cost you less than buying new cams and injector rail assembly.

Gotcha, thanks! That's a big help. We'll go in that direction then.

[wgr73]

Turbo will be here this Friday/Saturday! Going to put a Clutchmasters FX400 (6 puck) in this weekend hopefully and tune it on 91 first. Then Run E47 and see how far we can push it on the stock fuel system. Something tells me we won't make anymore than the 91oct tune due to the lack of fuel.

We just bought this for the car I'm doing work on and tuning (http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.shtml)

Where should I tap in to the fuel lines (in series) to add this sensor/gauge combo? I know direct injection cars put out high fuel pressure so I'm not sure where exactly I should tap in.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Very cool ethanol kit. Tap it in the line right befor the high pressure pump. If its close to the hp pumps main feed it will give you the e value for fuel entering the motor closest to real time.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

You can use the sensor data to tap a feed wire into an hpt pro slot and read it in the scanner as a custom sensor. You planning on doing that?

[wgr73]

Thanks! I have it in my STi and it helps immensely! I'll try to find the HPFP, I'm not too familiar with Cobalts. I don't have pro That would be nice to do! I would love to tap the data into the ECU and have it adjust the map by +/- the E% value to add or subtract fuel. But I'm dreaming :P

[T-Man]

Turbo will be here this Friday/Saturday! Going to put a Clutchmasters FX400 (6 puck) in this weekend hopefully and tune it on 91 first. Then Run E47 and see how far we can push it on the stock fuel system. Something tells me we won't make anymore than the 91oct tune due to the lack of fuel.

Start small with your E-blend and you will be pleasantly surprised at how far E25 or E35 can take you. Based on the studies that have been done using the LNF and ethanol show that E20 will afford most of the benefits of ethanol and after E50, there wasn't a whole lot to be gained (diminishing return)

I run E20 in my current LNF and my testing with my previous LNF showed that I could run well over 18* of timing and 22psi in 100+ degree heat without issues. I don't plan to push my current quite as hard but nice to know it's there if I want

Good luck man

[Iam Broke]

I concur. E47 was the sweetest spot on my LNF. 24* advance at 24 psi.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

pump 91 with 22* here hehehe but i cheat

[wgr73]

Hahaha thanks guys for all the info! It really helps

[cobaltssoverbooster]

there was a large file i was handed not to long ago and it was about studying knock and ethanol blends and effects on the 2.0 lnf engine. i will find it again and post it for any who wish to read.

[Iam Broke]

GMTech posted several, I probably still have them at home if you can't locate them. The papers proved what we had found in our experimenting.

[ATLsilverSS]

I am making a custom 5th injector kit like gmtech did for my 25g im installing next month. Mounting the injector over the center of the tb and retapping the mani for vacuum. Im using a siemmens 630 to achieve 500-525 on full e85. It requires welding an injector boss but it allows much better fuel atomization and equal fuel to all cylinders

[noorjSS]

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2011-01-0900.pdf

[cobaltssoverbooster]

close but mines from MIT Engineering
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/hand.../676953430.pdf

and knock testing MIT Engineering
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bwxy...it?usp=sharing