Installed 102mm TB and now cannot idle, and needs throttle to start...Help?

[edmundu]

So I swapped the CAI for a Superbee 103, maf forward, and a 102mm TB, it is an ERL, uses stock LS2/7 electronics.

I searched on what to change in the tune, and it all pointed to just a ETC scalar change. I set it to 7190. Flashed the pcm, and it would crank and crank, and only start once I put my foot on the throttle and hold it. LEtting go will stall it immediately! Oops, I also changed the MAF trasnfer curve back to stock, which wasn't much different than what I had.

I added 10% to the BRAF, didn't change anything.
I wound up adding 4x to BRAF, and the car still wouldn't start without holding the throttle. And then it only kind of barely held 500 rpm idle. Any movement of the throttle, would cause it to stall out.

I don't get it? What am I missing?

I attached my tune. THis is where I only edited the scalar to 7190. Everything else as it was with the 90mm TB.

UPDATE: THe TB was junk afterall!!!! I swapped it in for a NW102, and only needed a scalar adjustment and bamo, idled perfectly, and absolutely no other issues!

[GPGTP]

post a scan

[edmundu]

It doesn't want to idle, without throttle, and once you give it throttle, it keeps the rpm's well above idle norms...

I will attempt to log it, anything in particular I should log?

[GPGTP]

its most likely an idle airflow issue. load up the bills ls2 idle config and take a scan of the scenario. I would start with start up airflow.

Sounds like a junk throttle body.

[edmundu]

I cannot see how that would be...IT uses stock electronics. ERL is pretty well known for their machining work.

You think I could transfer over my 90mm electronics over to it, and see if it is bad electronics/sensors?
***Never mind, I don't have a 5 lobe security bit...***

Where would I find Bills LS2 idle config?

[edcmat-l1]

Your throttle body is not junk. I will give you a hint. Your scalar is too high. Lower your scalar until it starts up and runs with the same exact idle airflow table your 90mm throttle body ran on.

[edmundu]

Your throttle body is not junk. I will give you a hint. Your scalar is too high. Lower your scalar until it starts up and runs with the same exact idle airflow table your 90mm throttle body ran on.

Huh...I was initially thinking that, but didn't bother trying from a few threads that specifically stated it would be in the 7000's range.

I will give that a go....Thanks for your input.

I will certainly post back with the results!

[GPGTP]

Ok I shouldn't be so harsh, it SHOULD run fine with your scaler but if that doesn't work, which it doesn't, then you need to look at airflow as stated. If I was at my laptop I would send you the config but really you just need to see where your dynamic airflow is at compared to your stock min airflow table, adjust the scalar by the percent error, as already stated. Should log adaptive idle spark too.

[wstaab]

Set you scalar to ETC 6000, max to 8191, min to 0.
Then work with you final idle minimum airflow tables to get a stable idle.

[edmundu]

Set you scalar to ETC 6000, max to 8191, min to 0.
Then work with you final idle minimum airflow tables to get a stable idle.

I did that, well 6025, and added 10-15% to my final idle airflow, still no dice! And it didn't seem any closer.
I did notice that when I attempted to modify the Percent Max & Percent Max-brake values higher, it triggered P0606?

I then ran low on battery voltage, from too many repeated attmepts in starting the car. Put it on the trickle charger, and it is still charging up.

Before I make additional attempts, I am hoping to get some opinions on why none of the suggestions are working? The original tune on the car was done with EFI Live, and I have HPTuners. Would there have been tables edited in that software that I cannot see?

In digging around, I came upon a post about having BRAF & SUA set too high, and it actually would trigger the pcm to shut the throttle blade?
I also found a thread, about some TB's not having enough air gap at low blade angles to allow for enough air to start/idle?

I truly appreciate all your guys suggestions, and hope to get this resolved soon. Otherwise, I will have to revert to my 90mm TB...

[edmundu]

I tried a scalar as low as 5600, and it really didn't change much, leading me to believe that the scalar doesn't seem to be the issue.

I have added a bunch of BRAF, as high as 1.97 lb/min in the 650-1000 rpm region. Still didn't seem to do much.

Is there a chance something is wrong with the ERL TB? I bought it used, but it was from a reputable corvette forum vendor.

[C5 Scully]

edmundu spoke to you on the CF about the DVD

[C5 Scully]

edmundu spoke to you on the CF about the DVD

[MikeOD]

Set you scalar to ETC 6000, max to 8191, min to 0.
Then work with you final idle minimum airflow tables to get a stable idle.

You've gotta be careful doing that. If the minimum airflow is messed up because of an incorrect scalar, the throttle plate actually closes as the vehicle starts to move even though you're comanding it to open more with your right foot...makes it super annoying to drive a stick car with an aggressive clutch. Really need to do what Ed said, dial airflow in with the stock TB and scalar, then swap to the other TB and adjust the scalar. Essentially the PCM only uses the minimum airflow number to determine what a throttle position should be based on the scalar and some math, it's not actually moving the plate based on MAF or SD airflow data...although that's what we use to tune the table when the scalar is stock (correct for the TB on the engine).

I tried a scalar as low as 5600, and it really didn't change much, leading me to believe that the scalar doesn't seem to be the issue.

I have added a bunch of BRAF, as high as 1.97 lb/min in the 650-1000 rpm region. Still didn't seem to do much.

Is there a chance something is wrong with the ERL TB? I bought it used, but it was from a reputable corvette forum vendor.

I spent weeks banging my head against the wall with my NW102, then I read Ed's post in this thread about adjusting the scalar...so I coped my final airflow min table from my last tune that had the stock 90mm in, tweaked the scalar more, and now the car is a dream to drive...do you have good numbers from the original 90mm? If not, even though this sounds annoying, I'd swap it back on, and swap in all it's stock settings again...then do this procedure with the stock 90 http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...103#post136103 then swap the 102 back on, and do what Ed said...if that still doesn't work, then I think you have a problem with the TB itself.

For what it's worth, my scalar on my NW102 on my LS3 wound up somewhere around 6300, not the 7000+ that I originally thought it needed to be.

[edmundu]

You've gotta be careful doing that. If the minimum airflow is messed up because of an incorrect scalar, the throttle plate actually closes as the vehicle starts to move even though you're comanding it to open more with your right foot...makes it super annoying to drive a stick car with an aggressive clutch. Really need to do what Ed said, dial airflow in with the stock TB and scalar, then swap to the other TB and adjust the scalar. Essentially the PCM only uses the minimum airflow number to determine what a throttle position should be based on the scalar and some math, it's not actually moving the plate based on MAF or SD airflow data...although that's what we use to tune the table when the scalar is stock (correct for the TB on the engine).



I spent weeks banging my head against the wall with my NW102, then I read Ed's post in this thread about adjusting the scalar...so I coped my final airflow min table from my last tune that had the stock 90mm in, tweaked the scalar more, and now the car is a dream to drive...do you have good numbers from the original 90mm? If not, even though this sounds annoying, I'd swap it back on, and swap in all it's stock settings again...then do this procedure with the stock 90 http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...103#post136103 then swap the 102 back on, and do what Ed said...if that still doesn't work, then I think you have a problem with the TB itself.

For what it's worth, my scalar on my NW102 on my LS3 wound up somewhere around 6300, not the 7000+ that I originally thought it needed to be.

That's what worries me, I did have the tune completely dialed in on the 90mm TB. I only changed the CAI, from a KBII to a SuperBee, which is almost the same except for MAF location, but the transfer curve is almost identical. So I really only expected to need to change the ETC scalar.

But that is not working. I have made a small amount of progress by adding % to the Max Percent, to a max of 3.65%. It helped, but I cannot push that any higher, otherwise I put the PCM into REP mode.

I will make some more attempts tonight, as the car is on a trickle charger, as it is very draining to the battery to repeatedly keep starting the car.

Thanks you for your suggestions, hopefully I can get this sorted out soon. I may even contact ERL to confirm that the TB is OK.

[MikeOD]

That seems like a lot of increase on the max %...mine is still stock and more than happy idling.

[edmundu]

I'm kinda wondering if there are tables exposed in EFILive, that are not present in HPTuner's....Because it was tuned using EFILive.

I might try, grabbing my original tune file, prior to the HCI, and just copying in the values of the tables I have now. Then see where that gets me with the 102. Other than that, I might just need to revert back to the 90, and then pay to have the 102 tuned in.

[edmundu]

Copying into my original tune file, did nothing. Same exact results!

This is super frustrating. I even did like MikeOD suggested, and zero'ed out the BRAF table, and the car behaved exactly the same.
Pretty much nothing changes the outcome. arghhhhhh.....

[edmundu]

Your throttle body is not junk. I will give you a hint. Your scalar is too high. Lower your scalar until it starts up and runs with the same exact idle airflow table your 90mm throttle body ran on.

Tried ETC scalar as low as 4725, stock, and it didn't change a thing!

The car simply will NOT idle, no matter what settings are changed. I am already into it for close to $1k, and nothing to show for it.....

[edmundu]

I am going to try increasing the min area, from 0 to something higher on hopes that this will get the car to idle without throttle.

I guess no one has any experience with this ERL TB.

IF any of you tuners are willing to assist in getting me going, just pm me and we can work something out.