Solid lifters and KR.

[extremevx]

I just finished rebuilding LNF in my solstice over the winter. I have heavier valve springs, so I went with Bates solid lifters. Now, I get alot of KR, more than I did before the build which almost non existant. From about 1500 rpm to 3500rpm 15% load up to 60% load. I keep pulling timing but it doesnt get any better. Im thinking it has to be False KR, mayber from the chatter of the solid lifters. Also, anytime you let off the gas then barely get back into the trottle, you'll get KR for a secong there too.
Some more info on this engine so that it may help someone that is more experienced in tuning then me, as Im just a beginner at this. The engine has forged I-beam rods, Wiseco LNF forged pistons. Ported head, Ferrera stainless valves, 82# valve springs, ZZP stage 1 cams with lobe. port matched intake and exhaust manifold, EFR 6758 Turbo, 3' downpipe with Solo Street race exhaust. And a fifth injector setup that I copied from GMTECH post on it. Ive calibrated the MAF and the STFT ar within 2%. But I keep pulling timing out of those cells that keep showing KR, and nothing helps. Ive clocked the knock sensors at 9'oclock. I may go an start moving them around to see if there are any changes. I will post logs later when IM at home. Oh, and Im running E85, its the only ethanol I can get in 100 miles.
Any ideas would be helpful as Im just starting to get into to tuning.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

is that a zzp ported head?

and after getting the engine hot you should verify the lash on the lifters to make sure the noise from the rockers stays at a minimum. guarantees there is no movement after a heat cycle (expansion and contraction)
thats all i got though, knock sensors are so sensitive i dont use mine anymore.

[extremevx]

No..the head was done by a local engine builder who has alot of Honda experience. Its not ported very much. Basically just smoothed everything up and got rid of the sharp corner at the short side radius on the intake ports. and then gasket matched the openings. Yeah! I might have the clearences too wide. They were a bitch to measure and figure out how mauch material to remove from each one, even with the shims and everything that Lenny Bates sends you with the kit. Almost all ended up being a different length. I'll probably end up going back to the Hyd. lifters. I've looked into the KR listening device you mentioned in another thread, but its a little too expensive for me right now. going back to the stock lifters is way cheaper. I'll put up a log later and see what you more experienced guys think

Here's my log and tune

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Oh boy your in for fun you touched the corner I tell everyone to leave alone. I hope you got some flow analysis done in solid works or a similar first. The swirl is crucial in the lnf. I learned the hard way, first person to touch that section lol

I hope yours isn't as picky as my head port ended up being. I wish u luck!

[extremevx]

I never would have thought that sharp edge in the intake bowels could be that beneficial. The little bumps halfway down through the intake tracts are still there though. I assume they are there to create turbulence for part throttle openings and low lift. I'm also wondering if the E85 I got wasn't bad. Its the only station in 100 miles that has it and they don't sell alot of it. It's possible that it sat in the ground all winter. If you look at the logs, KR is terrible. I basically have the stock timing tables in the tune and I still had to pull timing out of the midrange areas. The more I run it the worse it gets. Going to go back to 93 and recalibrate to see if it gets any better.

Cobaltoverbooster, what exactly did your ported head do and how did you get it right?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Bumps are lifter bores. When the injectors went in the runners moved up into the lifter bores so they left 2 bumps in the runners to retain material thickness under the lifters.

My ported head lost torque and maxed the turbos out at a lower rpm. The fix is I have an lhu cobaltss 8)

[extremevx]

OK..well its a good thing they didnt get removed then. I put 93 back in it today and a stock spark table. Still getting KR all over the place at 2300 to 3000 rpm. Its ok if you give it more than 20% pedal, but if you let off the throttle and then start to give it throttle again, that very instant you crack it back open, you get KR for a second. Im wondering that with the solid lifters, as soon as you take the slack out of the timimng chain between the crank gear and the intake gear its when it has KR. Ive ordered a set of HYD. adjusters, going to figure out how to put them in without removing the cams like we used to do on motorsycles.
Yeah! with the ported head, it seems to make more power at a lower boost which to be expected. But it seems I run out of fuel at a lower boost setting too now. At about 10lbs, Im hitting 6ms on the injection and and about 48lbs/m on the airflow. Is that normal? I would have thought the stock fuel system could handle a 6758 EFR all the way to its max. I get a backfire also when the injection duration get that high. And that with pump gas. I guess what I have to do is move my start injection on my Devils own controller down to about 8psi and see what happens in the logs to know where to set the max setting. Anyway, if I could get rid of the KR issue and the ECM pulling timing, it would all be easy. The engine doesnt sound to me like its knocking, but the ECM thinks so. Hopefully, going back to the stock lifters will cure that. I never had KR like this before.

I pulled tha vlave cover while hot and checked the clearence between the rockers and valves. All still had alot of clearence except #3. I have less KR on #3 than the rest.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Increase tip in retard for the rpm u have kr on throttle response. It may help some... Keyword is some.
As for fuel u just forgot u increased the dynamic flow in the cylinder head so even if the cams are the same it still move a lot more air over stock ports without the boost. Now u add boost and it could take up to 15-25% more flow from the compressor to achieve the same boost because u increased that dynamic flow.

More air sooner means the fuel cap gets lowered and then bam your 22psi run runs out of fuel at 4200rpm. Sucks doesn't it.

I had a gt3076r on my head and flowed 48lbs per min ve and 51 maf. My dyno jet numbers were 398whpand 380wtrq.
I finished a factory motor gt3076r last year and its lb/min were 44/46 and it landed 422 whp and 409wtrq so from dyno results I know it doesn't make the same trq and after research there is only 1 reson left.....cylinder air mass entry swirl patter distortion.
Now I did get over 400 with that head but it required help.....nos lol so my end result was not impressive but I love the engineering quality of the factory head and di system. Keeps me busy in free times while I Attempt to reverse engineer some of it.

[extremevx]

I agree, I remember back on the small block v8's. Open the ports up and you gain top end flow at the sacrifice of low rpm. low valve opening intake air velocity. This engine could really benefit from a variable geometry intake manifold and variable lift on the valves. Wouldnt need a throttle body then, just throttle it with the intake valves. But then again, that would open up a whole nother headeache to tuning...

A appreciate the help cobaltoverbooster. Last nigh I lowered the tipin retard from 2000-3500rpm from -3 tp -6. was maybe a little better. right now Im changing out the solid lifters for HYD ones. Gonna see if that clears up the KR

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Mine has kr everywhere after the port I hope u solve it with the simple stuff

[extremevx]

I got the hyd. lifters back in and went for a drive/log session. Man, I can't beleive what a different it makes. Kr is almost non existant now. Except for a little at about 4000 and about 10lbs of boost. I'll post the log later so you can see the difference. No more surging now because timing was being pulled. Just sounds alot better and more crisp. I would definitly never put solid lifters in an LNF unless you use an aftermarket controller, which Ive only seen one company out of England that make one for a DI engine and it was expensive and custom made.

You can see in my log where at about 10psi boost the 5th injector comes in and you seem my STFT go -30.5 and the WB go .66 Lambda. Don't really know how to aproach this. Do you have to manually adjust the Maf Correction table in those cells to get the trims right? I was thinking you just set the dials on the 5th inj controller and then adjust the fuel trims to compensate for the 5th inj controller, or visa versa? I think it would be hard to log somethiing like that and then try to copy and paste special that into the editor given that its such a drastic change. Anyone out there have a 5th injector that has experience in tuning them, please advise.

Here is the log.