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Thread: shift flares on 2008 Vette A6 - what is the solution?

  1. #21
    Engine>TQ management>engine>EQ
    2011 CTS-V w/FRA, bolt-ons & flex

  2. #22
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    OK so another question for you then (sorry to be a pest).

    Do you recommend I scale the entire chart say 10% (up) or so and see what happens?

  3. #23
    That's where I would start. Another option is to scale it to a reciprocal amount that the MAF table has changed (if it has). So if the MAF table is 25% lower you would scale the EQ table 33%+. 75%x1.33=100%
    2011 CTS-V w/FRA, bolt-ons & flex

  4. #24
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    OK thanks!

  5. #25
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  6. #26
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    [velocity, not understanding the math.]

    Let's say I have increased my maf by 7 percent.

    Are you saying to increase the eq by 1.07 as a multiplier?

    Also what exactly does this table do? If torque management is turned off does this table really matter?
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  7. #27
    We aren't talking about TQ Mngmnt, but rather calculated delivered TQ.

    So, as I understand it, the MAF table is "one"of the multipliers in the ECU's logarithm that calculates "delivered torque".

    If (that voltage changes up or down) the calculated delivered torque signal that is given to the TCU changes respectively. IE. The voltage for a particular amount of air is lower after mods & tune, the calculated delivered torque signal wil now be lower.

    The TCU uses this signal to tell the transmission how to adjust pressures (regardless of your TCU pressure tuning). If the TCU is being told its getting 150 lbs of TQ, then it will adapt to that. If it is in fact getting say, 300 ft lbs of TQ from the motor, then the pressures in the trans will be "adapt" to the 150 rather than the actual 300. Hence, the the TQ table needs to be adjusted such that the delivered TQ signal matches actual delivered TQ, so the adapts will work as intended. In this example, the A6's will likely flare up (pun intended)

    A shift flare, is a signal, that delivered TQ "may" be an issue.
    2011 CTS-V w/FRA, bolt-ons & flex

  8. #28
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    These tables are a bit of a grey area. I have played with them some, and in the end have raised them about 30%. It is very hard to know how much difference it is making because I have made so many other changes in the trans tune. Although I always have the feeling it could be a little better, I like the way my car shifts now, so I am not going to play with it for while and just enjoy driving.
    I find judging the effects of some of the changes very difficult. If something is way off, its easy to feel but small changes are just about "feel" and sometimes its tough to know if it really improved, or its wishful thinking.
    Example.... I had my trans working very well, and was satisfied. Recently I decided (seems I am never 100% satisfied with the tune) to dial in the VE and run a blended tune for the first time. (was running maf only). To my surprise, it feels to me like my trans is shifting much better with VE enabled !! Is it my imagination ? Who knows......

    All this said, keep in mind I do have the newer style stator in my trans, and I still think not having that upgrade could be causing the ops flare issue.
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  9. #29
    Senior Tuner edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V locity View Post
    We aren't talking about TQ Mngmnt, but rather calculated delivered TQ.

    So, as I understand it, the MAF table is "one"of the multipliers in the ECU's logarithm that calculates "delivered torque".

    If (that voltage changes up or down) the calculated delivered torque signal that is given to the TCU changes respectively. IE. The voltage for a particular amount of air is lower after mods & tune, the calculated delivered torque signal wil now be lower.

    The TCU uses this signal to tell the transmission how to adjust pressures (regardless of your TCU pressure tuning). If the TCU is being told its getting 150 lbs of TQ, then it will adapt to that. If it is in fact getting say, 300 ft lbs of TQ from the motor, then the pressures in the trans will be "adapt" to the 150 rather than the actual 300. Hence, the the TQ table needs to be adjusted such that the delivered TQ signal matches actual delivered TQ, so the adapts will work as intended. In this example, the A6's will likely flare up (pun intended)

    A shift flare, is a signal, that delivered TQ "may" be an issue.
    A few things to clarify here.

    First, in the GMs, the MAF doesn't output volts, it's Hertz (Hz, fequency). It is a digital on/off switching signal.

    Second, when you're tuning (dialing in a MAF in this example) you aren't changing the Hz, you're changing the reported airflow, or mass, in each respective Hz cell. This reported airflow is what the torque calculations are based on (at least partly).

    The most important thing when tuning the A6s, as mentioned a couple times in this thread, is to make sure the reported torque is correct. For the reported torque to be correct, the alrflow/mass model must be correct, and that is based on injector data (specifically flow rate) so that must be correct, before you can ever expect to have an accurate airmass model.

    Once your engine side is done, and as accurate as possible, log your TM pids under engine. Log all of them. Make sure your delivered tq and desired tq jive, and that they are realistic. Logging these along with trans temp will let you know where you are in your shift pressure tables. You can even setup a custom histogram for your shift pressure tables, to figure out what the actual pressure is versus commanded pressure.

    When tuning shift feel, I use shift times and pressures to obtain the feel and shift speeds (quickness) that I want. I also use inertia factor profile, but as a secondary. I use TM as a last resort, if I can't get the results I want using any other method. VERY RARELY do I have to skew the reported torque. VERY RARELY do I have to use TM.
    Last edited by edcmat-l1; 07-27-2013 at 08:40 AM.

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcmat-l1 View Post
    A few things to clarify here.

    First, in the GMs, the MAF doesn't output volts, it's Hertz (Hz, fequency). It is a digital on/off switching signal.

    Second, when you're tuning (dialing in a MAF in this example) you aren't changing the Hz, you're changing the reported airflow, or mass, in each respective Hz cell. This reported airflow is what the torque calculations are based on (at least partly).

    The most important thing when tuning the A6s, as mentioned a couple times in this thread, is to make sure the reported torque is correct. For the reported torque to be correct, the alrflow/mass model must be correct, and that is based on injector data (specifically flow rate) so that must be correct, before you can ever expect to have an accurate airmass model.

    Once your engine side is done, and as accurate as possible, log your TM pids under engine. Log all of them. Make sure your delivered tq and desired tq jive, and that they are realistic. Logging these along with trans temp will let you know where you are in your shift pressure tables. You can even setup a custom histogram for your shift pressure tables, to figure out what the actual pressure is versus commanded pressure.

    When tuning shift feel, I use shift times and pressures to obtain the feel and shift speeds (quickness) that I want. I also use inertia factor profile, but as a secondary. I use TM as a last resort, if I can't get the results I want using any other method. VERY RARELY do I have to skew the reported torque. VERY RARELY do I have to use TM.
    I will agree with everything said here. The torque coefficient tables are fairly new to HPT so and there is not too much info on using them yet. What I tried is comparing the torque figures from the dyno at various rpm's and comparing them to the reported torque in HPT. I deducted 25% to be safe ( a rough guess since the dyno is at the wheels but multiplied by the converter ) and upped the tables by the percentage difference. All I know is my transmission is shifting great. How long it will last is another question all together.
    2007 Corvette C6 Vert. A6
    LME LS402, Pat G custom cam, ATI 10% OD Damper
    Circle D triple disc 2600, 3.42 Diff
    YSI, 3.0 pulley, ID 1000's
    Alky Control Meth,
    ARH 1 7/8 headers,
    1009 RWHP @ 7000, 817 RWT @ 6000

  11. #31
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    does the calculated trq still get the output from the maf tables even when running a custom os mafless tune?