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Thread: LNF Speed Density Tuning Anyone?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Iam Broke View Post
    Those of us that have tuned LSx ECU's know of what he speaks. I had to retro learn it since I learned to tune the LNF first. lol.

    E69 is Bosch, not GM.
    Very true, but I would have to think there has to be some sort of ve and/or sd tables hidden in there somewhere that we obviously can't tap into yet. It would definitely make fine tuning things, like idle and light throttle in particular, easier alot of the time if we had access to some sort of dynamic air flow and ve tables to decide where and when ve and maf calcs took over/disable like the LSx based ecms and e67 have.... or even lsj's for that matter.
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  2. #22
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    My beleif is the ve table is fixed hard coded. You skew major changes with injector constant whic also help with not only e fuels but possible injector upgrades in the future. Once in a tighter range the maf keeps everything else extremely close if not right on point as a final refiner. Basically you could unplug your maf now and just modify the base table to correct fuel trims. Since the maf always reads a specific value when unplugged
    the base just skews off of that making only one correction variable instead of two. It's not ve tuning but because the maf is unplugged the ecu in a way sort of bypasses the maf curve table and runs to the next reliable table which is the maf base which just happens to have a load table axis. This load calculation relies more heavily off of the map sensor therefor acting similar to ve operation.
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  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner silverbullet08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    My beleif is the ve table is fixed hard coded. You skew major changes with injector constant whic also help with not only e fuels but possible injector upgrades in the future. Once in a tighter range the maf keeps everything else extremely close if not right on point as a final refiner. Basically you could unplug your maf now and just modify the base table to correct fuel trims. Since the maf always reads a specific value when unplugged
    the base just skews off of that making only one correction variable instead of two. It's not ve tuning but because the maf is unplugged the ecu in a way sort of bypasses the maf curve table and runs to the next reliable table which is the maf base which just happens to have a load table axis. This load calculation relies more heavily off of the map sensor therefor acting similar to ve operation.
    Bingo! Ive been running this for a while now just to see if there is any major down fall to it. So far the only issue is that there seems to be a longer delay in the loop change after initial start up. I believe my maf was on its way out the window either way so my results were much more dramatic than what others will see. Either way the maf is what seems to be giving a few people trouble in Gmtechs thread with the optimum timing tables. The PCM still seems to reference the maf frequency table even with it unplugged. My calculated VE works the same and follows the same numbers in the curve while interpolating between... kinda wierd. Thats why I believe there is a MAP reference to this table. Would be sweet to have control over it. I found another cool little nick nac ive been playing with that im sure a lot of people will actually use. Il make a post up on it soon.
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  4. #24
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    The value for load is heavily based of of the map sensors thus why the tables are still in use.
    If more people can confirm this then I would be more than happy to add it to the library
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  5. #25
    Advanced Tuner silverbullet08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by projectlnf View Post
    are you talking about using the air fuel ratio histogram and adding it to the base maf table?
    You could use that but you have to pay close attention to what changes you are making. If I use the AFR histo I usually only use form 40% load up unless I have DFCO disabled. Sometimes the scanner will not pick up all the trims in a PID. So you need to occasionally go through and manuallly change a cell in the maf correction table. You can do this by logging load, rpm, commanded lambda, and actual lambda. There are a few posts around here that explain the same idea. watch your actual afr and compare it to comanded, then look at your stft. There are times that your stft will go static and say 0 when there is a large fuel mixture error. This is where you need to reference load and rpm to make the changes.
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  6. #26
    Advanced Tuner silverbullet08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    The value for load is heavily based of of the map sensors thus why the tables are still in use.
    If more people can confirm this then I would be more than happy to add it to the library
    Cool. yea map is typically parallel with load in most cases, so it makes sense.
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    MD800 Mustang Dyno 713-560-3889 Taylor
    2016 Camaro A8 "shop car" FIRST 6th GEN CAMARO OVER 200mph IN THE MILE 203.5mph

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner silverbullet08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iam Broke View Post
    Those of us that have tuned LSx ECU's know of what he speaks. I had to retro learn it since I learned to tune the LNF first. lol.

    E69 is Bosch, not GM.
    Lol yea it is a big jump between the two. I know these tables are not exactly "VE" tables but it was the best explanation I could think of to explain it to the tuner crowd.
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    MD800 Mustang Dyno 713-560-3889 Taylor
    2016 Camaro A8 "shop car" FIRST 6th GEN CAMARO OVER 200mph IN THE MILE 203.5mph

  8. #28
    Advanced Tuner projectlnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbullet08 View Post
    You could use that but you have to pay close attention to what changes you are making. If I use the AFR histo I usually only use form 40% load up unless I have DFCO disabled. Sometimes the scanner will not pick up all the trims in a PID. So you need to occasionally go through and manuallly change a cell in the maf correction table. You can do this by logging load, rpm, commanded lambda, and actual lambda. There are a few posts around here that explain the same idea. watch your actual afr and compare it to comanded, then look at your stft. There are times that your stft will go static and say 0 when there is a large fuel mixture error. This is where you need to reference load and rpm to make the changes.
    long overdue on looking at this thread but im going to start this today i have a couple errands to do so im testing it soon.. wish my luck lol and if i have and questions youll hear from me soon since you have been doing this longer than i have!
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  9. #29
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    This has just struck my interest. I wonder how much success I can have now that I have the 3 bars available to me(If I can get them installed).

  10. #30
    Advanced Tuner silverbullet08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by projectlnf View Post
    long overdue on looking at this thread but im going to start this today i have a couple errands to do so im testing it soon.. wish my luck lol and if i have and questions youll hear from me soon since you have been doing this longer than i have!
    Just let me know!
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    2016 Camaro A8 "shop car" FIRST 6th GEN CAMARO OVER 200mph IN THE MILE 203.5mph

  11. #31
    Advanced Tuner projectlnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbullet08 View Post
    Just let me know!

    i actually disconnected my MAF and ran around for a little and yeah it is smoother lol and by god it takes a long time to get out of warm up lol but i had to switch back cuz i was going a long distance and wanted no problems on the way so im going to try again this weeked
    2003 Ford excursion 6.0 PSD
    No limit intake
    Straight pipe
    Studded
    EGR delete
    KC billet single plane compressor wheel
    Self Tuned
    XDP Regulated return
    RDP Fuel sump
    AEM progressive water meth
    Custom suspension air bags
    8" lift
    35" tires

  12. #32
    Advanced Tuner silverbullet08's Avatar
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    Yes, if your maf is already dialed in fairly close then you should have no issues disconnecting it. It runs smoother because there are fewer variables going into the end commanded fueling. Like Ive said before the maf seems to have too much of a influence on the commanded fueling. The wierd thing about the long warm up is that it only happens sometimes. I have been watching that closley and seems to only be after a flash or a complete cold start up. Man it would be sweet to have loop control on these cars.
    HP-Unlimited Tuning and Custom Fabrication
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    MD800 Mustang Dyno 713-560-3889 Taylor
    2016 Camaro A8 "shop car" FIRST 6th GEN CAMARO OVER 200mph IN THE MILE 203.5mph

  13. #33
    Advanced Tuner projectlnf's Avatar
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    just went on to cobaltss.net for the first time in a while and saw that trifecta is now offering a speed density tune. they dont call it speed density tho this is the thread that i saw





    Introducing Trifecta ECP- BIG NEWS
    We've been working on this for well over a year and we've spent lots of time testing and ensuring it's correct, but we've finally nailed it down and it's almost ready for production, and we're really proud of what we've come up with.

    "I'd like to introduce Trifecta ECP, or Enhanced Charge Prediction.

    As everybody knows, one of the biggest challenges in modding LNFs, is tuning them for various intakes and especially blow off valves (BOVs). These mods can result in sporadic setting of P0101 codes (or other fuel related codes) and disabling of boost (or limits to 3psi) largely due to the sensitivity of the airflow sensors on these vehicles.

    We've come up with some completely new tweaks that work with the vehicle sensors to allow for more wider variety of operating conditions when they report the data to the ECM. These new tweaks solve several problems that have plagued the community for a long time, including different intakes throwing codes and requiring re-tunes based on how the air filter is rotated (think the K&N SRI), not being able to run an atmospheric blow-off valve without relocating the MAF, and even then having trouble with the car not running right and hitting limp mode all the time.

    So far the test results are very promising - we went out and broke every single intake rule there is for the LNF without ANY DTCs, CELs or boost limp mode. You'll be able to run a BOV with no problems, be able to run any intake you want without needing a re-tune for it. You could literally run a piece of pipe and a sock monkey as your intake and it would run fine. (We don't recommend doing that)

    And here's the best part- If you already have a Trifecta tune AND own a Trifecta cable, this update will be 100% FREE. (your local dealer may charge you at their own discretion. If you do not own a cable and need to rent one, you can do so at the normal minor re-tune cost)

    Now as I said earlier, this is NOT ready for production yet. We're in the beta test stage. So we need you- people with persistent P0101 codes, people running atmospheric BOVs, and people having limp mode issues related to intakes or other charge issues- to test this out. If you own a Trifecta tune and a Trifecta cable and fit the criteria above, please reply to this thread and we'll contact you. You do not need to own a Trifecta cable if you live in south florida and are willing to drive to me to get this installed."
    2003 Ford excursion 6.0 PSD
    No limit intake
    Straight pipe
    Studded
    EGR delete
    KC billet single plane compressor wheel
    Self Tuned
    XDP Regulated return
    RDP Fuel sump
    AEM progressive water meth
    Custom suspension air bags
    8" lift
    35" tires

  14. #34
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    I'm just going to say wow on this one.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  15. #35
    Advanced Tuner projectlnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    I'm just going to say wow on this one.
    yeah i saw that and my jaw dropped! i wonder if its just a coincidence? my guess would be yea because trifecta has been doing some pretty crazy things on these lnf's like the window switch.. just what i heard from someone?
    2003 Ford excursion 6.0 PSD
    No limit intake
    Straight pipe
    Studded
    EGR delete
    KC billet single plane compressor wheel
    Self Tuned
    XDP Regulated return
    RDP Fuel sump
    AEM progressive water meth
    Custom suspension air bags
    8" lift
    35" tires

  16. #36
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    Anyone still running in Speed Density? I had this idea and remembered this thread because I relocated my MAF and it seems too close to the TB blade, so I thought maybe I could run SD. Wishing we had the control to run SD on idle and MAF at cruise like the LSJ and V8s though...

  17. #37
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    i had a car set up on SD for over a year now actually. because the zzp harness took a shit on the maf relocate. off idle was sloppy, cruising and wot was fine. couldn't tell the difference.
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  18. #38
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    Area47, if you peel the stock harness back it'll have enough wiring to reach without having to use a jumper harness like ZZP's. I haven't tried it but I know a couple people who have.

    I ran MAFless for over a year but switched back when I put the 5th injector in because I needed the extra control. You can't control fuel trims the same.

    I personally hate relocating the MAF and I find it completely useless. Personal preference though.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM173 View Post
    Area47, if you peel the stock harness back it'll have enough wiring to reach without having to use a jumper harness like ZZP's. I haven't tried it but I know a couple people who have.

    I ran MAFless for over a year but switched back when I put the 5th injector in because I needed the extra control. You can't control fuel trims the same.

    I personally hate relocating the MAF and I find it completely useless. Personal preference though.
    the harness was spliced into because of something funky with the plug. i didn't do it, was just the monkey with the keyboard.

    The only issues it had in "sd" was right off idle, or moving slowly in first. it was jerky. outside of this. everything was good go.
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.

  20. #40
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    Everyone I have done which is only a couple because I don't like to doesn't let you control fuel trims with any MAF calibration because you are not using the MAF. Maybe I was just unlucky on the ones I have done but that is the issues I had. I spent time tuning idle though and had zero issues with idle and take off. A bit of a pain but that was possible.