i did all the way from 10-30%, get all those to like each other between those rpms, and you will have a smooth idle. I spent alot of time on it and i finally have it nailed. Probably spent 20 hours on it total, but i learned alot so it was worth it. Only thing i cant figure out now is the drop right after startup and ive tried everything!Originally Posted by |V3nom|
Sorry guys, been hella busy lately and haven't had time to share my latest discoveries or check my threads for questions. Good to see Greg Banish has been filling in for me though and helping all you guys out.
not.
oh you know how much greg likes to help out here, pretty much single handily figured out how all the tables work together and can perfectly tune the lnf!
2008 Sky RL
I was just looking through this because I want to personally learn more about DI because of the new Vette coming out. I also happen to know Greg very well, and you are dead wrong about him. First off he answered a PM that was posted to the thread, you attacked that, but not too bad, however when he did reply you said those who know do and those that don't teach. How would you take that if it were reversed? I read everything else that he posted, why I probably would not have said what he did, you did somewhat deserve it and with your reply why should he give you any information at all. First off he gave you the answer, he gave it to all of you, you need to go back and re-read it. Second Greg does work with DI stuff and Bosch ECU's, Let me say this, HE is a OEM Calibrator. So if nobody understands what this means, he programs ECU's that you are trying to figure out. The difference is also in the software systems, OEM's do not use HP or any other publicly available systems. I can share info on the E67 because I basically work in that and the E38, but the calibration has 8200 tables in it, what you see in the programs available to us, we only see about 650 tables. So it is the same issue you are working with on the LNF, there are other tables that you do not see, that is what Greg is telling you and he even named one of them. If you can't see it you can't calibrate it period, sure you can turn another knob somewhere and see an effect, but I am sure for every positive effect there is also a negative one because that is not your base table. I can tell you that in the E38 and E67 world about 98% of the "tooners" out there have completely missed the boat on how that ECU operates and what paths it takes in figuring out air/fuel/spark. As far as the race car calibrations that is great if you do that, but race cars are not street cars, I would be more impressed if your 500+ hp LNF drove like a stock one with a grandmother behind the wheel. My suggestion to you is, instead of insulting Greg, listen really carefully to what he has to say, because it is not very often that you will get an OE calibrator to explain something. He also gets paid to do this, so he is not going to just roll out the red carpet for you, but he is very helpful to those who are respectful and willing to listen.
Christian,I think that would be the single biggest help for everyone in this forum to understand this platform. Second would be to let us and HPT know what tables we're missing.
GM does not make these available very easily. First off you have to have a special expensive program to look at the GM ones, and plastered all over them is GM confidential so unless someone is willing to lose a job, don't expect to see one of these really soon. I can tell you this, it is a really long list of to do's.
Hopefully everyone will work this out and in the end maybe learn something useful, but as I know Greg, listen to what he has to say. He has said things in the past that the E38,E40,E67 and even LS1B guys didn't understand then so they brushed it off, kinda like in this thread and sure enough it is a big thing now because they are finally starting to understand a little bit about it and how wrong they were in the past, he is a very smart individual that has direct inside knowledge of what you are working on, so I would be so quick to say some of the things that were said. I am very aware of how true that statement you mentioned about teaching, but it does not apply here, also what do they say about a wise man listening instead of talking.
Justin
Hate to be harsh but here's my thoughts...
If I really gave a damn what some random guy on the internet thinks of me, what I know or how my car runs (lol), I'd respond to this.
But I don't, so I won't.
Sorry.
Justin,
I never said he wasn't knowledgeable, I'm sure Greg is super smart. I think just being interested and trying to learn this requires a high level of intelligence that the majority lacks.
What I'm saying is don't jump in a thread and start shit or even be part of an argument unless you also have something productive to share, and vague criticism isn't productive!
I'm all for giving people a hard time and some misanthropic banter, hell people close to me know I'm pissed at them if I don't pokem and ruffle their feathers, but then you have to follow that with a positive. It's called and "Emotional Bank", don't go in the red!!
And don't jump in someones thread say they are totally wrong and you know everything, give some vague Nostradamus like statement, and follow that with a a very rude, smart ass comment in a foreign language. Du bist nicht der einzige Intellektuelle hier! (You're not the only intellectual here!) You'd do better to not say anything at all, if you can't share any productive information.
And as far as the information sharing, I also work with the OEMs and have read and signed the same NDAs. So you can give information just not in their words or directly about their Intellectual Data. Helping with a flow chart, paraphrasing concepts, and/or describing a missing table isn't going to violate anything.
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my statement, and sorry for interrupting the thread again. Now can we figure this damn ECU out!!!
--Christian
Personally, I don't really car either but I see this is why you probably deserved the respect you were given by him.
Christian,
NDA's are one thing but confidential is another. For example I would love to show some people some stuff but I am not even sure if I show a screen shot of something if there could be anything that would show where I got it from that could be damaging. There are license numbers on stuff in the screen and I do not know what they mean, so personally I play it safe and keep my sources secret. Second, he came in and started to help until he was told he knew nothing. That is coming from a GM tech I assume so at least I know what I think of my dealer techs around here. Heck there are a bunch of them that can't even change the oil in a LS engine with dry sump. As it is most of them are a bunch of smart a**'s also.
Anyways Greg did answer the question, he told them there was another table and named it. It may not be able to be seen in HP, but that is another issue. He drew the dots on the map it is up to you guys to connect the lines. My assumption is that if you are nice and respectful he would probably help you out.
Justin
So you're saying that telling someone "fuck you" is OK and that you should still be treated respectfully after you say "fuck you" in a public forum?
--Christian
this thread honestly needs to be locked......
i admit i said stuff and didnt personally mean what it ended up sounding like and i failed at apologizing so i just quit speaking to end the disaster.
everyone here needs to take away from the thread that there is a way to monitor the scanner and make changes and get a desired result that is usually performed on a money consuming dyno. as stated there are more tables in this ecu that are not currently present...there is even a diagram in another post that shows two torque model calculation tables that we do not see.
so can we put our freakin ego's asside and stop talking about eachother and go back to exploring the ecu's functions and helping other members catch up to where some of us are? Who cares if some of us dont actually make a breakthrough....there are people on here asking for help and thats apart of what this forum is here for. both types of people are equally important in my mind.
this section was once really awesome untill we started running out of tables that hadnt been explored...then we all turned to hating on eachothers style's or methods. id like to go back to the awesome place this used to be if you all dont mind.....this SH&%S getting old
2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman
I totally agree!!
I apologize for my part, I hope everyone else involved mans up to their mistakes and apologizes to the forum also!
I'm done!
--Christian
On that note I think I figured out how to add 2-4 extra wideband knock sensors.
This should tell what is real and fake knock, it should also send the ECU into protection mode automatically.
I'll start a thread on that when my testing is complete.
--Christian
Actually I said I would not have, but he probably deserves the respect that was given becuase of the attitude he came across with just like what he said to me. He is correct he does not know me, hell I could be the guy the did the factory calibration on the LNF, after what that guy said do you really think I would post any information? I understand where you guys are coming from, but seriously he comes off like that and it is ok and everyone else may be an idiot who goes against what he said. I am not the guy that did the OEM cal obviously that was a what if, but I will say that I did go and look at a LNF cal, it does not look difficult and after looking at the tables, um yea go back to what Greg told you guys and start from there and re-look at all the tables and their descriptions.
Peace
Dude, this is so ridiculous I had to comment. If you ever actually had to tune an LNF you would be apologizing to all of us. I've done hundreds of E38, E40 and E67 tunes. Those ECM's are child's play compared to getting the very, very few E69 tables we have do what you want them to do. Think about it, what do you think is easier to tune, an ECM we have 600 tables for or one we have 60 tables for? I'll tell you... the more tables, the easier to tune. Duh.
Do you know how many guys in the country really know how to make an LNF tune work properly? Seriously. I'm gonna say there are less than a dozen guys in the country that can get an LNF to work as they want it to. Maybe. I've seen and worked with pretty much all the big players in the LNF tuning community. I know a lot of their strengths and weaknesses. Since you have no clue who I am or what I'm about, I'm the guy that helps guys out after they've been to every single big name LNF tuner in the country and are at their wits end because their car runs like crap. Some of these guys I've helped for absolutely free. After all, they've already paid a ton of money to Vince at Trifecta, Matt at ZZP, DDM, James, BYT, Westers, Term 2, etc, etc. Yes, I've fixed tunes from all of them. If it was so easy to tune LNF's, these guys wouldn't have cars out there they can't fix. The race car I'm going to track tune in a couple weeks DNS'd at a National event because the tune from one of the vendors I just mentioned was so bad the car wasn't even able to make it through practice. I DO NOT KNOW OF ONE SINGLE LNF TUNER THAT FULLY UNDERSTANDS EVERY TABLE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE FEW TABLES WE EVEN HAVE. Here's another one... I can guaranty you that EVERY single LNF tuner in the country could tell you there's an engine operation or symptom that they cannot figure out how to fix with the tables available to us.
The bottom line is the fact that there are so few tables available to us is why tuning the LNF is so difficult. Here's a challenge for you if you think the LNF is so easy... Take a look at that LNF tune and tell me how you control idle spark timing. If it's so easy, how come I was the only one that could do it for years. That's a fact, I was the ONLY ONE that knew how to control idle ignition timing for years. Look at the tune and tell me how to do it. Or you could just look through my old posts because as with most everything else I've figured out, I've shared how to do it freely with my fellow "tooners" as you rudely called them.
As Christian said, you and Greg came in here spouting off, being rude and obnoxious, and BOTH of you clearly have NO IDEA what you're talking about when it comes SPECIFICALLY to the E69 and LNF. You can say whatever you want about my attitude, but I guaranty you I've NEVER told anyone "F#ck You" online. I don't care who you are or what you know, there is NEVER a good reason to do something like that.
Oh and on my car being undrivable by a grandma... again, you have no clue. I'll give you a hint- I've specialized in DRIVABILITY for over 35 years of my career, and no manager, boss or dealership owner that I've worked for has ever run across anyone that's done it better than me. Maybe that's why my current dealership owner and my boss both trust me and me alone with their million dollar race cars.
Remember, I work in a dealership. We deal with cars driven by grandma's everyday. I average 10 cars a day through my stall. 90% of them are computer, electronics, fuel injection or drivability issues. I've been a dealership Journeyman for over 30 years. You do the math on how much experience I have on making cars run perfectly, even when the factory can't. Lol, if you only knew how many GM Engineers have learned how to make the cars they built and tuned run better from me telling them what works and what doesn't work. I'm sure you've heard of GM Service Bulletins? Yeah, they've made many of those over the last 30 years from MY input to GM Engineers. That's me helping others and getting no monetary gain or even a thank you most of the time. Again, you have no clue and making the rude remark about "GM Techs" that you made is not only uncalled for, but in my case 100% wrong.
Not sure why I even wasted my time here. I guess it just bugs me when someone has their mind so made up and yet they're so wrong. You're wrong on several points. One of which is your assessment of Greg. Another is your assessment of me. Damn, I don't think you even understand Christian. Hmmm, maybe you should spend less time on the internet trying to tell people who they are if you don't have a clue. If you had a clue on any of this, you'd be apologizing. I'm not holding my breath though so don't worry about it.
ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is my thread and I still believe it is an important one. There ARE guys that have learned from this and their cars run better because of this info. If anything, the BS posts can all be deleted, mine included, but I do not want to see this thread locked or deleted.
You know guys I've been pretty bummed out about helping and sharing here lately and I realized when it started, it was when Greg came in here, or at least it was the tipping point. I know pretty much nothing about him, but I just realized something. His presence here in my thread has made me not want to contribute here. I just did a rough tally of the views on my threads in this forum, I've had about 50,000 views of MY threads, and that doesn't include all the other threads I've contributed to. So when a guy that supposedly is so smart and helpful (Greg) comes into someone else's thread and has the effect of making a member that's contributed threads with 50,000 views feel like never posting again, how smart and helpful is that? That hurts everyone. And to have a member that's also a strong contributor (cobaltssoverbooster) say he thinks the thread should be locked because of what happened when that person came into the thread, how good is that for the community? Not good.
I don't like this kind of stuff. I want to be able to share here. I don't know everything, but I do know a bunch of good stuff. There are many, many cars out there that are running better and stronger because of my posts and threads. Christian and I have actually talked in the past about doing an "LNF Table by Table Tuning Guide", but with cr@p like this, I've told him why should we bother? I don't know, maybe I need to just take a break from the forums for awhile and concentrate on the 50 other projects I have going on right now.
I will take the opportunity to apologize to the group right now. I'm sorry I ever made the comment I made to Greg. I did feel I was somewhat attacked and felt justified in making a smart @ss comment back, but I should have just kept my mouth shut. What he said after that shocked me though. If I had any idea my flippant comment would have caused that offensive, rude and slightly racist response, I would have NEVER said a word. That was my mistake, and again, I apologize for that.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."-Mark Twain
2008 Sky RL
because people like me who want to learn need it.
theres definitely a higher % of "tooners" who read and learn here who would benefit from this information than there are "those two guys" lol.
2008 Sky RL
thank you gmtech, i appreciate it and hope we can move on from here even if its a one sided apology.
man you got me all interested in the table by table guide now! dont dissapoint me now by not doing it.
2008 Sky RL
First off you need to read what is being written, I did not come in here and ridicul anyone, I vouched for Greg and said that what you said was in actuallity what lead him to saying what he did. I agree with you in that there are not many tables available to you, and that makes calibrating very difficult and if the table is not available you may not be able to actually "fix" something. For everything you are saying, you are making assumptions about me, for one I did not say you could tune, I said I am not impressed with race cars that people tune because most of those don't idle and they have no drivability so to use that as a corner stone of one's abilities does not impress me. You don't care, good neither do I. I merely came in here to learn more about DI, and saw this thread and saw what you said about Greg so I commented since I know him. I also don't know who Christian is, don't care and I have not mis judged him becuase I have make no assumptions of him. A do not disclose agreement is completely different then a confidential paper that has been written. So with all of this you also don't know who I am, but you are making assumptions and then complaining about someone else making an assumption about you, what does that make you, I am sure you don't care. As far as you getting GM cars back up an running and going back to the Engineers, I raise the BS flag on that. I happen to know some of the engineers that GM sends out to figure out issues on cars that the Techs can't, and they don't work for a dealership. The only assumption I can make of you is what you have said here, and it is you know everything about a E69, even though you can only see 60 tables right. You slam a calibration engineer that could look at all the tables, yes all of the tables that are in that operating system, however you say "He who teaches knows nothing". That is a smart a** compent and it is basically the same as what Greg said to you. I realize this thread has caused some people to get upset, but you are taking it wrong. Greg gave you the answer, you have to figure it out from there. Oh yea, yes I could get your LNF to idle, I have no doubt about that. So maybe you should back off your high horse a little and realize that you are not the most knowledgable on this stuff and listen to what others have to say. I admit there are allot of internet tooners out there, and they will lead you down the wrong path and most of them don't have a clue, but you threw that a GM Calibrator, that was stupid. If you are so great why has GM not pulled you into there engineering staff to program the OE vehicle.
My suggestion which I am sure you will laught at is to calm down and digest everything that is being said instead of reacting to something and taking something the wrong way. Just as Greg should not have said what he did, you should not have instigated they way you did but saying what you did.
Are you silent when you see someone you know thrown under a bus. I would hope not. I stand behind everything I said and don't see where and apology is due. I know you are looking for answers on your cal, but they were given to you. Sometime we refuse to see them when they are not what we want.
Cool.
Now can you please leave us alone so we can get back to the mature discussions we have in this end of the forum?
This is MY thread. I did not invite you or Greg into it. Ever since you BOTH have entered this thread though, it's gone downhill. Neither you OR Greg have contributed anything positive to the subject of this discussion. Greg posted blanket statements that apply to every ECM out there. NOTHING SPECIFIC TO THE LNF OR THE SPECIFIC TABLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. NOTHING. Other members have asked him directly to elaborate and help, but he has refused. What he posted was actually quite demeening to the members here. He assumed we were all idiots and didn't even realize how an ECM works. Gee Greg, thanks for telling me what I learned in the '80's. The other members on here are also smarter than that. Some of them specifically said they already knew and understood what he said, and could he be more specific to the E69. Of course what he said was true, it was basic computer knowledge anyone at this point of tuning should already, and most likely does already know. He basically talked down to not only me, but the entire LNF tuning community here. He came in, stirred things up, and left without helping or answering any specific questions. I'll tell you something, these guys aren't stupid. These are guys tuning Direct Injected, Turbo'd, Dual Overhead Cam motors with cam phasers on both cams. And have been since 2007. Most are running E47 or E85, and one guy here was the pioneer of all of you guys running Ethanol blends. We've had the Ethanol thing figured out years ago. Damn dude, your tuning a Vette that probably doesn't even HAVE one cam phaser. lol. It's a primitive V/8, my 20 year old son could tune one of those. Why don't you try to have a discussion with us about cam timing? That would be interesting. Two adjustable cams with Direct Injection and a turbo. Good luck with that pal. My point here is, these guys are not stupid. THAT'S why V3non said that quote, because we ALL realize how ignorant you are in regards to where we're all at on the LNF. IF YOU'VE NEVER ACTUALLY TUNED AN LNF, YOU CANNOT TELL ANYONE HOW EASY OR HARD IT IS.
This was MY discussion, started to help others and share what I've learned. That's what I do. Why don't you look through some of my posts and threads, they're almost ALL openly sharing my knowledge and helping others. I've looked at your posts, they're almost all questions, because you have no answers. No sharing of discoveries, because you've made none of your own. I've shared dozens, if not hundreds of my own discoveries on here specific to the LNF and E69. Count up how many people have viewed and read what I've posted. I'm guessing it's about 100 to 1 compared to yours. People read what I post because they learn from it. You and Greg have disrupted that. That's not a positive contribution to a forum. I don't give a rats @ss who you are or who Greg is. What you both have done here is not helpful at best, and hugely disruptive at worst.
Oh, btw, I don't know what kind of "race cars" you've seen, but the Stock Block Chevy V/8 that I worked on for the '81 Indy 500 had a smooth as silk idle. It was also the first Stock Block Chevy to finish the Indy 500. The block came out of a school bus. No lie. (That's because "seasoned" blocks work better than new ones. But I'm sure you and Greg knew that.) It was an iron block Chevy 350 and it finished 500 miles at Indy. And I was there on the pit crew helping it finish that race. Bite me dude.
Again, I'm asking that you please leave MY thread. I'm here to share knowledge, not fight with trolls. Go back under the bridge and leave us alone. Please.
