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Thread: LNF Cam adjustment

  1. #41
    So I know I probably did all kinds of shit wrong... I already have my idiot and retard merit badge on, so how about just being constructive with what I can improve and why my very different cam parameters had little effect?

    .HPL and .HPT files are available to constructive repliers and members by request only.

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    Thanks in advance for your time!!

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    Last edited by CDNITE; 03-25-2012 at 01:38 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Tuner Iam Broke's Avatar
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    I'm sure that those that understand cam timing will chime in, I just want to say on the stock turbo I never found any tables that performed better 60-100 mph in third WOT than the highest load column does stock ('08-'09 tables). Never had it on a dyno, just logging 60-100 mph WOT times.
    '12 Camaro T3 2SS/RS LS3 M6, SLP TVS 2300, Flex Fuel

  3. #43
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    holly kr brother....turn down your timing before you blow your motor....
    as for wot the factory cams seems to be very accurate alot of people like fastest 60' ect still have very basic cams.....if you are trying to flow it our then play with the exhaust cam just a little bit.

    things we have found....
    1)factory turb and cams are pretty solid for the most part
    2)aftermarket turbos and factory cams you move the exhaust to spool the turbo sooner, use maf lbs/min and ve airflow to make cam adjustments. the ve is more accurate to me but as long as they are both going up at the same time i would say your cam movement was a gain in power.
    3)this takes alot of time but for gas mileage you want to move the cams in the midrange you will have to drive the same for a long time and watch the mpg as you make your changes of course. shift your intake cams to be less negative numbers and your exhaust to less positive numbers. that will at least make your begining shifts go in the proper direction.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    holly kr brother....turn down your timing before you blow your motor....
    Turn down cam or ignition timing?
    The ignition timing is basically a lightly modded stock with lots of smoothing. I cant see how the Cams are causing KR as all four maps have nearly the same KR chart...

    Is it maybe to much heat mass in the cylinder? Would limiting it to 25-27psi get rid of the KR?
    IATs and EGTs look OK as does the MAFvVE and the fueling, so I ran with the 30psi. (I know my fueling isnt perfect, my laptop battery doesn't last very long, but it follows command spot on when there is KR)

    I think I'll move back to the GMPP/Stock cam and collect more data until I fully get this.

    --Christian

  5. #45
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    kr is ignition
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  6. #46
    from what i see your changes to idle wont do anything because you went past the base numbers.

    10 is max for intake, can only go more negative

    -6 is max for exhaust, can only go more positive

    edit: its not his timing, 30psi boost on 93 octane is not a good idea!!
    Last edited by stromboli86; 03-25-2012 at 04:54 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by stromboli86 View Post
    from what i see your changes to idle wont do anything because you went past the base numbers.

    10 is max for intake, can only go more negative

    -6 is max for exhaust, can only go more positive

    Can you explain this in some more detail, please?

    Is 10 the the highest value in the intake matrix and -6 the lowest in the exhaust matrix?

  8. #48
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    stromboli which way is retard and which is advance?
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  9. #49
    basically from all the reading and my experiences, not a whole lot lol, when the scanner is uncompensated it reads 0 on intake when your table says 10 and exhaust reads 0 when the table says -6...

    building on that, when the scanner increases in numeric value on intake, say 20*, that is actually -10* uncompensated on the table or -20 compensated

    for exhaust when the scanner increases in numeric value, say 10*, that is actually 4* uncompensated on the table or 10* compensated

    as far as advance and retard, im not positive but i see it as exhaust numbers numerically lower in the tables are advanced, high numbers more retarded... and intake cams the numerically lower number is advanced and higher numbers are more retarded. So on the table...

    Intake: -40 opens earlier/advance & 10 opens later/retard

    Exhaust: 40 opens later/retard & -6 opens earlier/advance

    This is why you see 40 exh in the cruise cells, it shuts the valve later allowing exhaust gases to leak back into the intake charge, displacing volume and acting like EGR, diluting the mixture and the intake opens earlier and shuts early allowing less cylinder fill to boot...

    This is my understanding of it but i might be completely wrong lol

    In the spirit of things i just made 2 new user defined parameters to display cams exactly the way the would be on the HP tuners tables... well new to my scanner!

    Intake: <([PID.2172]-10)*(-1)>
    Exhaust: <[PID.2178]-6>
    Last edited by stromboli86; 03-25-2012 at 08:22 PM.

  10. #50
    Senior Tuner Iam Broke's Avatar
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    Dude, if you are boosting 30 psi stock turbo, the pistons are toast. EGT's in the LNF are calculated, not actual.

    Limit midrange peak boost to 24 psi please or prepare to rebuild it again.
    Last edited by Iam Broke; 03-25-2012 at 09:41 PM.
    '12 Camaro T3 2SS/RS LS3 M6, SLP TVS 2300, Flex Fuel

  11. #51
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    thanks for some input stromboli
    cdnight yea i ran 30 psi on the factory turbo but the heat is immense and i didnt fix the kr issue until i got down to about 8* total timing. once i backed boost back down to around 23-24 i got all my timing back.

    did you compare iat with iat2 because the difference between the twon shows compressor heating.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  12. #52
    No problem, im glad you guys got me thinking about cam timing again and i finally changed the way i logged my cam timing... its great when it actually looks like the tables it comes from!

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Iam Broke View Post
    Dude, if you are boosting 30 psi stock turbo, the pistons are toast. EGT's in the LNF are calculated, not actual.
    Does anyone know what the actual not calculated EGT danger zone is on the stock LNF?

    I thought it was in the 1600-1800* range.

    My EGTs measured between the Turbo and the Wide Band in the Down Pipe look OK, they idle around 600* normal driving in the 1000-1200* and maxing out just over 1400* maybe after repeated 1,2,3,4 power pulls it touched 1600*.

    Is this in the danger zone? I understood that the LNF with GDI was designed to handle the much hotter exhaust temps that came with the high compression, high boost, and the lean burn design.
    Last edited by CDNITE; 03-26-2012 at 01:30 PM.

  14. #54
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    i saw 1600 on my external at the pamona drag strip in 2009 and i ran a pe tapper from .90 at 3k-4k taper down to .87 by 5k to the end. i also had to extend the injection window by some for the bolt ons i no longer have. sad face.
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  15. #55
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    explain this to me......
    if intake more negative is advance and exhaust more positive is retard, then how does intake cam - exhaust cam = overlap

    now i have a feeling that the camshaft pids are correct but i dont think the current overlap pid is correct ..... someone please explain to me? are you guys saying the more negative the overlap number the less overlap you have and more positive the more overlap you have. cause then i might be able to see that......


    i could use some focusin right now.......or that shit from the movie limitless lol
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 03-26-2012 at 02:29 PM.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  16. #56
    So following these guilds:

    Advance intake and exhaust => more low-RPM power, less high-RPM power
    Retard intake and exhaust => more high-RPM power, less low-RPM power
    Less overlap => lower EGTs, faster turbo spool, less fuel
    More overlap => higher EGTs, slower turbo spool, more fuel

    Intake: -40 opens earlier/advance & 10 opens later/retard
    Exhaust: 40 opens later/retard & -6 opens earlier/advance

    10* in the table increment is 1* on the cam

    base angle to TDC is 10* intake and -6* exhaust


    Would this be correct?

    Terminology Im using:
    "lower and decrease" meaning -40 is lower than -30 and 30 is lower than 40
    "higher and increase" meaning 40 is higher than 30 and -30 is higher than -40

    At low RPMs we want to increase/advance timing on the intake (lower/decrease number) and exhaust (higher/increase number)

    At high RPMs we want to reduce/retard timing on the intake (higher/increase number) and exhaust (lower/decrease number)


    Does anyone know the maximum change in table increments that is possible?
    I thought I read 25* that 250* increments that seems unlikely.

    Also what is the maximum and minimum delta of intake and exhaust?
    I cant imagine you can have +-50* difference.

    Are the timing changes equal to each side of base?
    Or is there more change in one direction?


    Please correct me if I stated anything wrong.

    --Christian
    Last edited by CDNITE; 03-26-2012 at 04:46 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post


    i could use some focusin right now.......or that shit from the movie limitless lol


    Is that "focusin" enough? I dont gots any dem pills from Limitless, sorry.

  18. #58
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    i found out more that i believe might have already been said but anyways here i go....

    two things are going on.....1 is the idle cam adjustments once the engine is warm operate on the main warm tables....at least in my car the idle table did nothing.
    a intake value of 10 is base 0* and exhaust value of -6 is 0* (already known) but these values are given and solid as a fact because with the intake retarded to the max the cam phaser bottoms out at the value of 10 which gm so rightfully made the sensor read as 0* for factory cam degree location. and the same goes for the exhaust cam but its factory location is at full advance and a value of -6. therefore the factory cam phasers cannot be shifted more than a value of 10/-6.

    second find which is kind of nice is it looks like gm left us alot of computer space for aftermarket cams.....which means if you have cams with a larger duration obviously at the factory location of 10/-6 you will have way more overlap which in cruise would be bad so i bet gm said well ok throw some power cams in and with the extra space and ability for people to advance the intake and retard the exhaust then viola they can have damn near the same gas mileage drivability (it will decrease some, already known) and even with a more agressive cam we can still pass smog with flying colors making after market cams harder to detect ;P
    so even though we cant change the lope of the factory camshafts we do have room for aftermarket camshafts with more duration. i would say a nice .030" off the base circle would make a nice up top and mid gain on a a.m. turbo setup if you choose the 5th inj setup to compensate for the up top fuel loss.

    my thoughts on cam design:
    after staring at the flowbench working on weber carburetors/gt3 cup motors/ and assorted v8 heads i have found that every valve has what i call a pinch point. a point in lift where the air meets its maximum flow through the valve seat and around the valve. if you lift the valve past the lift value for this pinch effect you will find the valve actually stops flowing more air or makes very minimal flow gains. all we have to do being turbo is keep a close duration and square the cam lobe out some while increasing the lift toward this point.....this should allow better flow of the turbo while not hurting emissions to bad. unlike a fixed adjustable cam setup with manually adjustable timing gears where you might have to compensate midrange power and spool time for optimum hp, we can shift our cams to help increase spool time on larger turbos and retain alot more of the midrange power.
    obviously you would basically want to just polish up the runners of the factory head and try to make them even as possible as i have found out through my full porting experience on the lnf head. you want to keep the smaller runner and use a camshaft design that would better optimize the flow specifically of the extremely close to factory or actual factory cylinder head.
    woops i ranted......
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 03-26-2012 at 06:13 PM.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  19. #59
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDNITE View Post
    Is that "focusin" enough? I dont gots any dem pills from Limitless, sorry.
    i think my focusin is working......for better or for worse
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  20. #60
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    dang this thread boomed lol! this cam stuff can get pretty confusing. best thing i always hear is people say there is so much tuning that can be done with these cams that there is no need for aftermarket cams. funny thing is is i ask how they go about them (i dont look for hand outs or try to take peoples stuff lol) and they cant even budge or try to help out. but thats why we all have HPT! once the temps get alittle warmer im going to go out and try some different things. once i actually see what seems to help ill post! i also have a dyno day coming up here at the end of april and plan to have a few different cam tables to try on the dyno and see what it does!
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