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Thread: LNF Cam adjustment

  1. #1

    LNF Cam adjustment

    Can any help me with how I can adjust the cam tables to make it sound like its got big cams at idle?

    Thanks guys,

    Christian

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDNITE View Post
    Can any help me with how I can adjust the cam tables to make it sound like its got big cams at idle?

    Thanks guys,

    Christian
    You wouldn't want to Christian, it would run like cr#p. That big cam lope is only for N/A cars, big overlap isn't what you want with a turbo.

    Hey I saw you were thinking about a big turbo setup? Have you talked to Dave at Performance Autowerks? I'm making awesome power with one of their EFR kits and their new custom built exhaust manifold. The manifold is a work of art, you should check it out. Just dyno'd my car and another EFR LNF car, biggest difference was the other car had a Garrett manifold, which is similar to the stock cast piece. Boost came in noticeably later and lower with the cast manifold vs. the stainless tube manifold. I don't think anyone has a solid back to back dyno comparison between their new manifold and any others, but I know it makes some awesome power over stock, a Garrett or even their own original design manifold.

    Sorry to jack your thread, just thought you could use the info.

  3. #3
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    well to be ohnest if he wanted a lope at idle with either setup they are running n/a at idle. it will trash your throttle response some just like n/a cars loose thiers but as long as idle is all you change i think you could have a nice cruise, heavy power, and whatever idle you wish as long as you can controll it.

    iirc 10 units of change in the scanner is 1* of camshaft shift.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  4. #4
    can you even change how much lope a LNF has by adjusting cams? i could see tone slightly but not adding much lope... reason being is you are only changing the timing of the cams, not the duration in which they are open. Make sense?!

    Perhaps lowering idle speed could get you closer to the sound but it would run bad i would imagine

  5. #5
    I only wanna change idle (800-1000rpm) that shouldn't effect driveability at all. And throttle response at that low an RPM is't an issue, usually you give it a little gas as you slip the clutch even when pulling out of a drive way or parking spot.

    Thanks for the advice with DDM, Dave and I are already working on some stuff, but they're so busy and I need a fix in the interim.

    The duration cant be adjusted but I imagine just the over lap will change the sound kinda like the CAT warmup but without the fast idle.

    cobaltssoverbooster, so do you have any recommendations for how many degrees in which direction and on which cam?

  6. #6
    This is what I was thinking

    For the intake cam 10s in rows 850 and 1000 up to 30%

    For the exhaust cam -6 in rows 850 and 1000 up to 30%

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    that would be 0* for both cams which is at intended factory cam position if iirc.

    as for lope the duration is not the only cause of lope...... there is also the amount of overlap.
    since old racing cams are fixed position the duration is increased 1) for flow and 2) to achieve more overlap. in a vvt engine because cam shift is possible all you have to do is shift the cams into more overlap. advance intake to open sooner and retard the exhaust to close later causing the two to be open at the same time longer and you will achieve your idle tone. i would not shift them much at a time since this is pretty much experimental.

    gmtech...i understand your theory but idle is idle if you loose a little bit of instant off idle response i dont think its as bad as you might be making it sound.
    daily driving- increased rpm just to be able to leave a light which gives the ecu time to adjust the cams for the cells out of idle which are in more factory position so not hurting anything....cruise well its in the middle of the cam charts and should be adjusted for gas mileage if tuned correctly, again no damage.
    drag racing- launched from a higher rpm some people at 4k others maybe higher and rpms are kept high the whole race, again no disadvantage
    circuit racing- well lets be ohnest if your cruising around the track at idle your either stuipid/ cars broke/ or sitting behind the pace car on a red flag condition. no disadvantage.


    so what disadvantage to you see that we arent seeing? yes the car is a turbo but at idle the turbo has open wastegate thus not really doing anything at all. that classifies the same as n/a to me...no forced induction at idle must run like an n/a. if the cams are adjustable and are tuned everywhere else for the function of the turbo as designed then overlap isnt a factor anymore...you still have turbo cams.

    its just like a ghost cam flash for the new 5.0 stangs. nasty sounding idle but awesome power everywhere else.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPaI-dknKZg
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  8. #8
    yea good points, iv read so much on here about cams and adjusting... it just makes me more confused each time. iv been thinking about experimenting some to hear different idle tones as well but i rarely have the time to sit down now-a-days lol

    To add to the cat warmup cycle tho, doesnt some of its tone also come from it dumping extra fuel in to heat the cats quicker?!

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    cat warmup cycle opens the exhaust sooner to let more of the mixture preheat the cat if im reading the table correctly.

    as for idle you should only have to change the idle warm tables.....i would leave the cold ones alone to prevent problem on warmup transitions.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

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    Wow. I've seen it all now. I had no idea the Mustang guys were doing that. I like the lumpy V8 sound as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, in my opinion tuning your engine to run badly is just retarded. You're only gonna fool the guys that don't know anything. And the ones that REALLY don't know anything about cars and don't realize the big cam lope usually means big power, those people are just gonna wonder why your car is running so badly.

    When I was in high school I had a buddy that liked to do stupid things to his car. It was a '68 Firebird. Here's some of the things he did to that car...

    It came with a 2 barrel carb, he bought an adapter to put a 4 bbl on a 2 bbl manifold and put on big Holley Double Pumper. It made the car slower.

    He ran a hose from his windshield washer pump to in front of his back tires so he could spray bleach on his tires since it didn't make enough power to do a burnout on it's own. The bleach didn't work so he tried trans fluid. It didn't work too good either.

    His "Thrush Hush" mufflers hung down so low that he often would catch them on speed bumps and potholes. He'd have to jump out and pick up the muffler and throw it in the trunk.

    But here's the best one he did, and the reason I brought this up...

    He screwed the idle mixture screws out as far as they would go so it would run so badly it would sound like he had a big cam! (We called them "3/4 Race Cams" back then) It sounded slightly like it had a cam, but ran so badly he fouled the plugs. Then it REALLY sounded like it had that big cam lope!

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    well we are getting the same sound with the correct fuel ratio and not fouling plugs.

    i remember people doing the idle screw thing.....
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 03-23-2012 at 07:15 PM.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  12. #12
    Senior Tuner Iam Broke's Avatar
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    Damn, memories...3/4 cams. lol. Iz older than (dirt) U GMT.
    '12 Camaro T3 2SS/RS LS3 M6, SLP TVS 2300, Flex Fuel

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    well if we all remember then somethings wrong with all of us hahaha
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner Gimpster's Avatar
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    This thread is huge fail.

    When I can tune my Sonic, I'll out lope you all

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    kind of not related to the first post but heres my question on the cams, what do we really want on the cams. do we want alot of overlap or do we barley want overlap? i read some of GMtechs posts on how to take the intake and exhaust tables and show overlap. i messed with some in the mid range and actually i went from 27-28mpg up to 30-31.5mpg (highway of course, running 75-80mph) im kind of stuck on the cams lol. ive been sittin here tryin different things to the cams but really havent seen to much difference in times yet.
    2014 ford f150 3.5 EcoBoost. afe stage 2 intake


    2009 cobalt SS T/C. Forge BPV, Hahn CAI, Hahn catless DP, 3" straight pipe, Dejon hot/cold IC piping, MPX IC, Werks 3bars, Werks Big Wheel Turbo upgrade, Powell Rotated Mounts Stage 3

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner Iam Broke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    This thread is huge fail.

    When I can tune my Sonic, I'll out lope you all
    Let TF melt the pistons for you. lol.
    '12 Camaro T3 2SS/RS LS3 M6, SLP TVS 2300, Flex Fuel

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    There's some good points and questions in here and there should be some discussion about stuff like cam timing, but I have to vent a little bit here on this subject specifically...

    I put some cam table screen shots in my "LNF learn and share" thread like a year or so ago. I was kind of disappointed when I found those EXACT tables in tunes from some paid "tuners". I wouldn't mind if those so-called tuners were on here "learning and sharing", instead of "lurking and stealing". I've never seen any contributions from these particular guys. I'm not sure they've even posted anything on here at all. All they did was use things we've ALL said and shared on here for their own profits and to build a reputation as a "professional tuner" based on using other's knowledge as their own. Sorry but that's total BS. That's the kind of thing that has made me not want to share detailed information anymore.

    So here's the thing I wanted to mention about those cam tables I had posted way back then... I haven't used cam timing like that for a very long time! After a few hundred logs since then, I've learned there's WAY better cam timing for these motors. So for all of you guys that have blindly copied those tables without actually talking about them. Or haven't used them to make new discoveries on your own that you can then share on here, what you've done is shot yourselves in the foot. I really hoped and wished that the community of "professional" tuners would be self confident enough to share what they've learned, but I guess that's not the case. I could name a dozen tuners, vendors and shops that tune these LNF's, but the "learning and sharing" between them is practically zero. What a shame.

    Sorry, rant over.

  18. #18
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    ive said it before and ill say it one last time.....the limits to our cam timing adjustments and knowledge base is due to the fact that we dont have live tuning available for these pcms. now instead of being able to get a dyno for a few days and move the cams into 2,000,000 diferent positions we are limited to 5,000 adjustments in the extended time range of like 2 months. with no one offering this feature and/or even putting effort into it our cams will most likely be in the dark for a few more years as we can only make slow progress.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

  19. #19
    gmtech, I get your frustration, really I do, but some of us are trying and just need a point in the right direction. I also get that you think making a lopey idle is retarded, I can wear that merit badge if you'd like because I'm not worried about fouled plugs as I change all the fluids and check all the serviceable parts every season.

    I've been playing with you Cam setting and some others but I'm not seeing but difference and I'm nervous about going wild because I don't know what not to do...

    So if you or anyone else can point me in a direction and maybe tell me how far I shouldn't go, great!!

    If not then why are any of us on here, the cobalt forum has plenty of name calling and bitching but its a good bit more witty and funny... just saying...

  20. #20
    On another note, gmtech, I'm using your config file but there are some parameters that look like combination of PIDs can you share how I set those up?