Mechanical help, need opinions

[GeoJB]

I would like to have confirmation on my thoughts.

Two weeks ago, My kid calls me. At 3:30 AM!
" Dad, My car wont start". He called AAA for some help, ended up needing to be towed to a shop.
"Jule's" (shop owner) told me, "There is no spark", changed out the Ignition module no luck, Crank Sensor, no luck.
He doesn't get into anything Major, He thinks it jumped the timing chain. $87.00 later.
It now sits in a buddy's garage.

BTW, he is Monessen PA, south of Pittsburgh PA, I am in Angola NY just south of Buffalo.

Last week-end I went down there, to have a look see.
My worst fear.... no compression in 3 out of 4. and # 4 barely made it to 110 PSI. the others Not event to 60 PSI.

My son tells me all he did, Shut the car off, no revving or horsing around. Came out to start it....nothing.

Oh this is a 2005 Chevy classic with a 2.2 and just over 100K

I am thinking it is the timing chain jumped a tooth?
Is it possible for the chain to jump a tooth and be so out of time, that no signal will come from the CPS?
Or am I missing something.

Any one have any tips that could help?

the next challenge, getting the car back up here to buffalo.

On top of all of this, He graduates in the End of Sept. from here:
http://www.dec.edu/p...eupeffects.html

Having his wings clipped with no wheels near the end of school..... sucks.
Then, we got to bring him and all his creations & crap back home plus a dead car....... Sigh....I don't mind wrenching on his car... the timing sucks!!!

[Mode6$]

The 2.2 ecotec timing chain tensioner failure is common. Usually preceded by a rattling sound. Sorry, bro

[Impalla SS]

Yes I agree with Mode6 I have seen this happen before.

[GeoJB]

Now Can I change the chain with the motor in the car or does it need to be pulled?

[rnjmur]

You can change the chain and the tensioners without pulling the motor, I know quite a few people that have done it.

[mecanicman]

Pm me your Email, i will foward repair instructions and torque specs.

[GeoJB]

Pm me your Email, i will foward repair instructions and torque specs.

Oh wow, Thank You!!

Before this thread goes more into a non-tuning thread. (which it will later when I have to do a case learn in the beta 2.23 of which btw doesn't like my Buick)

Could you point me to some boards to ask the more questions specific to this car.

Thanks Gents!

[GeoJB]

Have the BETA working.

Added this in case I forgot something
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36615


Timing chain is good.

Changed: CPS-x2, ICM-x2, Got a bone yard Coil pack with ICM, still no start.
The extra CPS & ICM because I really don't know what the mechanic in pitts left in there.
New Delco spark plugs (41-105)
Disabled the VATS
After talking to the local dealer, (really decent guys, not pricks)
Explained all that I did, to them, they suggested, another PCM.
Swapped that out for a boneyard one, same year and model.
Did the key relearns, a few times. Also used-up two credits for the boneyard PCM to turn off the VATS in that one.
Still no start.
I did notice the old plugs had cracks in the porcelain, two of them. Different circuits too. (as in A&B). I have read that, that will kill a coil pack.
So in case the bonyard coil pack was bad. I got another one... New.

I have been following the Alldata trouble shooting guide for a no start.
I am able to pick up a "count" from the CPS with my digital meter. on the Frequency setting. I can see it ramp up to a count of 1.35 then it stays there while cranking.

I have a good ground.
Cleaned all the engine area ground points and the one near the PCM under the dash, on the drivers side.
I have power.

Now, all this time I have had the alternator belt off, when I checked the timing chain.
I do have the batt hooked up to a 10/50 amp charger.
I think I included all the scans & configs.
Going to try to the new coil pack today and put everything back.
If that doesn't work.
It's going to the garage.

And will probably be on of those.........

[cobaltssoverbooster]

well if the tune file has been changed before failure did you flash stock back into it? i dont know exactly what you have done with it y i ask. and if all inputs are good to the ecu and it wont fire probably burned a ecu or some unfortunate mechanical failure. compression test for burned rings and such.

one thing i noticed with my lnf that could be going on with your car is that when i disconnect the maf sensor it doesnt start no matter what i try to do so i would check it to see if its failed out.
do you have camshaft position sensors? some engines run timing and fuel injection pulses off of the camshaft instead of the crank because it knows that it will spin at half crank speed kinda like an old cam driven distributor on the older muscle motors.

when you had the valvecover off for checking the chain did you notice any broken springs or failing rockers ect.
just some suggestions

[mecanicman]

You did not list any codes, are there none? Your scan shows no rpm, no ipw. I would start confirming wiring. Crank sensor, cam sensor, ICM, Pull every fuse in the car and visually confrim(I have seen them burn in wierd places, make sure you can seen it is ok.)

[06_sic_ss]

did u do leak down test as well or just compression test?

[mecanicman]

did u do leak down test as well or just compression test?

I dont believe it is a mechanical fault unless the reluctor fell off the crank. There is no rpm signal present in the scans.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

things to log for us which we could use to help would be.
rpm, cam sensors, maf hz and voltage, map, tps both pedal and plate which could be listed as etc, 02 sensors, ignition timing, and fuel pressure and injector duty cycle or pulse width. ( also this is critical to haev every cylinder value read for injectors )

these are going to tell us everything we need to know. all that is required for start is air, fuel and spark. so we know you have 1=air. it cranks and spins and you said the chain is in time so you should have the correct timing events. unless something i have seen only a few times occurs which is a soft cam core that gives way a has play behind the gear it is very rare so we can rule it out usually pretty quickly.

fuel - all that we can say is the injectors ar recieveing fuel by having correct rail pressure and that they are being fired by ecu because it has a pulse width signal. crank and cam sensors may also play apart in this if either does not have signal, incorrect signal, or out of sync.

ignition - same with the cam and crank signals for fuel situation as in both signals need to be recieved by the computer. if the computer shows its putting out a voltage than you can have a problem after the computer or in the ignition driver circuit itself which is internal to the ecu. but since you swapped them its most likely not a driver cuircuit.

if signals do not line up at any of those points i would verify the circuits are not grounding somewhere due to rodent issues-everyone says not me but they are sneaky sometimes.....by measuring resistance from the ciruit to the chassis using an ohm meter. obviously results will determine if repairs are required. its a vague step by step we can walk you through to make sure every base is covered and we should be able to get her running again. just show us the money....not really just a log a log with the sensors inputs i have listed for you.

[GeoJB]

Well this is what was scanned, list of what is available in the primary table.
See below, attachment.

NO MAF for this engine.

Also from Alldata,

The powertrain control module (PCM) supplies a signal on each of the ignition control (IC) timing control circuits to the ignition control module (ICM). The ICM fires the correct ignition coil at the correct time based on the signals. The ICM detects if cylinder 1 or cylinder 3 is on the compression stroke by sensing the secondary voltage and polarity of each side of the ignition coil. The ICM detects this voltage with sensing circuitry integrated into each ignition coil. The higher voltage is on the compressing cylinder. This is called compression sense ignition. The ICM provides a synthesized cam signal to the PCM based on these inputs.

Mechanically, it's "OK".
Did a compression 1,3,4 are at 200, # 2 is around 160. But #2 will build up a pressure.
Did a leak down # 2 was a bit of a leaker more than the others. Not enough the not start the car.

Ya I did forget the codes earlier.
It never had any P-codes right from the start!
Only had these:
Unknown] B2575 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2585 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2577 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2578 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2587 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2588 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2648 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2600 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2601 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2602 - (SES)
[Unknown] B2603 - (SES)
[Unknown] B1379 - (History)
[Unknown] B1001 - Option Configuration Error (SES)
[Unknown] U1000 - Class 2 Communication Malfunction (History)
[Unknown] U1128 - Loss of Communications with IRC (History)
[Unknown] U1176 - Loss Of RFA Communications (History)
[Restraints] U1016 - Loss of Class 2 Communication with VCM (History) (Immature)
[Restraints] U1000 - Class 2 Communication Malfunction (History) (Immature)

That was a scan from a few days ago.
Now most of them are gone per our Mechanic.
================================================== =======

This is all a mute point for me.
I towed the car over to our local Mechanic, whom is a real trouble shooter. And a good guy, not a money hog.
Today he found that there is no signal coming from the ignition key switch.
When he moves the key in just the right way he can see a signal in the acc position and sometimes in the run position. The signal goes dead just past the run position and is gone when it goes into the start position.
It's not in the tumbler, Had a locksmith come out look at it. (An AAA discount can be used for the tumbler) Mechanic is trying to keep the cost down for us.
The tumbler assembly was not the cause/failure.
He has a few other things he is going to look at tomorrow.
I will keep Y'all posted.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

thats all the correct info to be scanned. i would say check continuity between ecu and icm since you have no spark i believe you said. or the other way to do that is find the ignition signal wires going into the irc and measure the ac voltage and dc voltage if they both read then you know you are getting signal to that unit.

the ignition signal definately is a must first becuase if i remember correctly the ecu needs an ignition signal during cranking to verify the car is not being stolen/hot wired in a sense. i could be mistaken but in the last few ive seen the car holds that run signal while cranking.

[GeoJB]

i could be mistaken but in the last few ive seen the car holds that run signal while cranking.

According to My mechanic, that's where the problem starts.
After that is fixed, he'll go threw the car & make sure all is well.
It is in his hand now.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

get er done....

[GeoJB]

New Ignition switch in, still no signal when turned to the start position.
His Snap-on scan tool, says there is a short in one of the circuits to/from or in the BCM.
He had a recient up-grade with his program and now he can't find the BCM re-write....Snap-on sales will be there tomorrow.
Seems like a different BCM is in order......
Have to have all the "circuits and Gizmo's" in their proper working order to make sure all the Sh!t is working.
I had to go back to the car and put in the original read with VATS enabled.....
This is going to cost me a-lot........$$$$

[GeoJB]

Final out come, a bad reference wire at the crank sensor.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

(boomhower voice) Bam dang ol rodents man be chewin everything!!