FYI RE Sniper Tuning Products

[vectorbundle]

i paid $1800 for Delta Force Ford tuning package, used it occasionally for couple of years and decided to sell it. but not so fast... sniper told me they refuse to license/support/install the product for the new owner if i sell. which of course means i can't sell it bc no one will be able to anything with it. nice. paid $1800 to tune a handful of cars.

no other software vendor uses hardware fingerprinting to lock their software to one machine and charge you $300 to install it on another (why do that, it's not like you are getting to tune anything for free by having it installed on your laptop AND PC) or refuses to honor ownership transfer. their attempt at an explanation was they have to tech support their products (like their competitors don't) and don't know if they will be supporting 1 or 2 people so they can't afford it.

that's a lie bc once i no longer have the interface i can't use their software on my machine to tune anything, plus i need to order credits ("bullets" they call them) from them to continue to tune. they know from the HW fingerprint ID (which they require you to email them to email you bullets) who is ordering from them. just greedy.

i would have never bought their product had i known i am taking it to my grave. plus a few comments about the product itself. the user interface is weak, forget dragging points on a graph or smoothing functions. and to read/write you have to jump through hoops pressing buttons to save files to interface and then to ECM or PC.

and to order a bullet you have to send them a HW fingerprint generated with their interface connected to your machine, and the HWFP changes if you reconnect. so for that bullet to be valid you have to keep the interface connected and wait for them to manually email you the bullet. that's bullets. but there's more...

there is a separate armadillo shell HWFP used to install and continue to run the software on the machine. the HWFP changes if the architecture of your machine changes. e.g., i have 3 hard drives in my PC - 1 OS drive and 2 data drives. changed 1 data drive and their software stopped working. told them and they wanted to charge me $300 to provide a new key for the new HWFP bc it's considered installing on different machine unless i provide a proof/receipt(!) that i bought a hard drive. WTF??? i have a dozen hard drives laying around, i don't keep track where/when i bought them or keep receipts.

not exactly user friendly imhp. definitely a few evolutionary steps down the latter compared to HPT and EFIlive. it did sorta work to do the job and i was able to use it to tune a few cars, but would have never bought it had they made it clear up front that it cannot be resold. and once i contacted them they should have done something for me to honor the transfer (say i pay their stupid $300 fee to send another key for the new owner) but basically told me sorry, you're SOL. thanks.

anyway, that's been my experience. if you are considering buying their product, think twice, and then think again.

-alex

[edcmat-l1]

Yep Sniper blows chunks. They suck so bad it's hard to comprehend.

[vectorbundle]

too bad HPT is not going to support the older ford stuff. their screwing me over aside, just using the sniper junk was like working with an abacus by comparison, total joke. they should spend more effort developing their software functionality than hardware locking their customers to one machine and nickel and diming them to reinstall or refusing to honor product transfers.

that's ok, i have a long memory. they actually lost money bc (a) i won't be buying any more tuning credits from them, but the new owner would... and (b) i am going to pass this on and it is going to cost them sales (how many people who know up front that they can't ever resell their clunky product will still buy it?)... and (c) i'll take a detailed look at things when i get better after my surgery, i have couple of ideas...

[Apples]

Thanks for the info.
I was looking at buying there product for doing a 2001 F250 5.4 but won't bother now.
You have saved one.

[superwagon]

I was looking at them as well. I think I will look elsewhere.

[roadconetuning]

I got screwed too... they had zero sympathy for me when I tried to include my sniper interface when I sold my car. So now I have one bullet left and no cars to tune.... the only benefit I have is that a few guys want me to throw tunes into their 2v cars... but still credits are pretty expensive to me...

[1998Ws6]

It is sad that they are 2 miles from me and I do not know a single person who uses their product.

Ryan

[Fox95]

Ive bought and used the sniper product, and navigating through it is a disaster. I wouldn't reccomend it.

that said though, Diablo has a horrid data logger.... but i still have to use it because 60% of the mustang users use diablo. 30% use SCT and 9% use hpt.

SCT has everyone beat with available logging channels and tuning parameters. SCT has you locked out of some tuning parameters until you take their advanced tuning courses(i.e. spend more money with them) etc....

HP tuners has their share of issues too. The logger is still incomplete and some other stuff. etc... but the HP tuners credit system ease of buying is by far the best.

They all have their pros and cons it's just which cons your willing to put up with.

[yonson]

Ive bought and used the sniper product, and navigating through it is a disaster. I wouldn't reccomend it.

that said though, Diablo has a horrid data logger.... but i still have to use it because 60% of the mustang users use diablo. 30% use SCT and 9% use hpt.

SCT has everyone beat with available logging channels and tuning parameters. SCT has you locked out of some tuning parameters until you take their advanced tuning courses(i.e. spend more money with them) etc....

HP tuners has their share of issues too. The logger is still incomplete and some other stuff. etc... but the HP tuners credit system ease of buying is by far the best.

They all have their pros and cons it's just which cons your willing to put up with.

On Ford stuff I always tuned with Diablo and logged with SCT, best of both worlds for me. I tried buying the SCT tuning s/w a few years ago but the cost was way too much if you wanted to tune cars, trucks etc... was going to be close to $10k vs. all Ford Gas for 1/4 that with Diablo...

[vectorbundle]

SCT has you locked out of some tuning parameters until you take their advanced tuning courses(i.e. spend more money with them) etc....

very nice. that's pretty funny. do they refund your $ if it turns out you know more than the instructor?

[Fox95]

very nice. that's pretty funny. do they refund your $ if it turns out you know more than the instructor?

Not sure, do you know more than greg banish?

[1998Ws6]

The reason for the training is not money, but to ensure people understand the ECT system, safety monitors and what not to do.

[Fox95]

The reason for the training is not money, but to ensure people understand the ECT system, safety monitors and what not to do.

but what if you already understand it and don't need the class? why should you have to pay extra money to have those parameters unlocked in the software so you can change them.

[pontisteve]

I've taken the class. Trust me, if you haven't taken it, you probably don't understand the Ford torque-based ETC system. SCT's decision to block users from those parameters is designed to keep people safe. There's a lot you could screw up in there.

Besides, I learned more in that weekend than I ever could have in years without it. Painfully not cheap, but worth it. I came out with a new respect for Greg's abilities.

[Bill@HPTuners]

I've taken the class. Trust me, if you haven't taken it, you probably don't understand the Ford torque-based ETC system. SCT's decision to block users from those parameters is designed to keep people safe. There's a lot you could screw up in there.

Besides, I learned more in that weekend than I ever could have in years without it. Painfully not cheap, but worth it. I came out with a new respect for Greg's abilities.

Do you know of SCT offers a GM or Dodge class that covers their ETC systems? I know with both GM and Dodge the wrong changes to the wrong tables can create major ETC issues.

[pontisteve]

Greg teaches the SCT advanced Ford class. He also puts on his own GM advanced class, thru calibrated success, not SCT. Since SCT now sells a GM tuning product, Im surprised they haven't partnered with him on the GM stuff as well.

Greg recently told me that he's thinking of down sizing his GM class to a 1 day, since the new DVD covers a bunch of new GM stuff, including the basics on GM ETC. His 2nd DVD shows how to resize the effective area for a bigger throttle body, and on some models how to remap the max airflow tables to prevent hitting the fault mode.

Gregs class spends lots of time covering the Ford ETC system, which is a more complex torque-based system than GMs. He emphasizes legality of modification, accurate safety checks, remapping effective area, etc. He also stresses putting the wheel torque errors back to stock, which is a terrific idea.

No freakin way most tuners will ever guess at how to do that stuff without his instruction, in my opinion. Especially on Fords. I wish he would come out with a DVD on just that topic. It's hard to retain that much info in my little head.

[yellz06]

What second dvd are you talking about? From what I gather, he only has one.

[pontisteve]

SME-DVD-2 from Summit. The 2nd DVD is advanced GM tuning... injector delay, virtual VE, drive-by-wire, GMVE and load calculation, etc.

[vectorbundle]

No freakin way most tuners will ever guess at how to do that stuff without his instruction, in my opinion.

that's (a) most tuners, and (b) it's an opinion. and (c) it's not even the point. software vendors are there to sell you the tools, not oversee your competence in using them. it's not snapon's business if you damage your knuckles learning how to use or improperly using a tool they sell you.

nothing special about SCT, you can screw things up royally with any editing software. and you can still screw stuff up after a class. do they give you an exam after the class? how do they know you know what they think you need to know? if it's that complicated and that serious, they must test you. and if you fail? take the class again? pay again? get tested again? some people may never pass. $$$ down the toilet. they should get refund on the product and the class?

you can see how it gets complicated if you look at it objectively. afaik SCT are the only ones doing this. eh. i don't buy that it's not about the money and all altruistically motivated. they make a profit on the class, it's a double dip in the cookie jar, two charges for one product.

analogously, consider how many HPT customers would agree to the same tactic, i.e., imagine "advanced" mode that we all click on when we 1st install the VCM suite is now greyed out until you spend $$ on their designated class. the big brother attempt at an explanation -- "it's for your own good" and "you are incapable of learning/understanding how to do this w/o the class" -- doesn't work.

i wouldn't buy SCT anyway, but i definitely wouldn't buy it if they locked me out of full capability unless i forked over more $$$ on top of their already exorbitantly priced product for some mandatory class.

[pontisteve]

On general principle I would agree with you. But this is not a typical situation. The Ford drive by wire is torque based, not pedal follower. If you don't know what you're doing, you can easily cause the vehicle to accelerate unexpectedly. At the very least, you will probably turn off important safety precautions that could lead to injury or death. SCT has a legal and a moral responsibility to protect others from your ignorance to the complexity of the system. Whats more important, your ability to modify a tune, or somebody's life?

I went into that class thinking like you, but came out with a new respect for their position.