Why isnt there a write up somewhere that tells you exactly how the vehicles operating system works? Like a step by step function of the PCM? From key on to cranking, idle, running and how each table affects everything and how each table affects another table?????????? Or is there something somewhere?
Last edited by Pwrtrip75; 05-28-2011 at 01:31 PM.
To the top.................
Great idea. Let me know when you've written and published it.
I've been getting by by searching / reading the posts on this and other forums, buying and studying Greg Banish's material, and reading the troubleshooting sections in the GM service manual for my Corvette. Things sure have changed a lot from when I started tinkering with carbs 50 years ago. I can now do a tune-up without getting my hands dirty. Gotta love that.
Best regards,
Bill
Silver 2003 C5 roadster, M6, Euro red/amber tails, Z06 Ti mufflers, Z06 2 cat H-pipe, Z06 airbox, and HPTuners s/w - available to any Corvette or other GM vehicle in Calgary, and also for Ford and Dodge products, including Cummins
Why should it be a search game to find an answer? I hate games. How well do you think other businesses would do if they didnt monopolize the feild and instead of sending instructions with something they just tell you to go search for it?Originally Posted by Billf6531
Great idea. Let me know when you've written and published it.
I've been getting by by searching / reading the posts on this and other forums, buying and studying Greg Banish's material, and reading the troubleshooting sections in the GM service manual for my Corvette. Things sure have changed a lot from when I started tinkering with carbs 50 years ago. I can now do a tune-up without getting my hands dirty. Gotta love that.
I have searched... not sure who this "Greg Banish" person is you speak of.. I did not see that at the top of any of these subforums. I didnt buy HPTuners from him so why would I seek him?
Im amazed that HPTuners is not interested in bettering their business. Lots of people are discouraged and dont buy this because of the poor instruction and lack of support.
Awesome example of a communication/marketing failure.
Well said, Bill. Perhaps the OP is so used to having things spoon-fed to him that he is incapable of independent research. What is this world coming too?
He should view what he believes to be a fault / defect in your product, as an unexploited business opportunity.
Best regards,
Bill
Silver 2003 C5 roadster, M6, Euro red/amber tails, Z06 Ti mufflers, Z06 2 cat H-pipe, Z06 airbox, and HPTuners s/w - available to any Corvette or other GM vehicle in Calgary, and also for Ford and Dodge products, including Cummins
I'd like to see someone try to explain it...its not like gm, ford & dodge are throwing this information at usWell said, Bill. Perhaps the OP is so used to having things spoon-fed to him that he is incapable of independent research. What is this world coming too?
He should view what he believes to be a fault / defect in your product, as an unexploited business opportunity.
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...
A wise man once said "google it"
patent + redhardsupra blog = damn good explanation.I'd like to see someone try to explain it...its not like gm, ford & dodge are throwing this information at us
Yeah but thats only for a handful of pcm's and I don't remember it actually explaining how each and every table works with one another on a step by step basis. Read some of Chris's posts, he does all of our reverse engineering work here...you'll often see he posting things like "it looks like this works with this table and should do that" for someone to take the time to go through to understand and document each and every thing would take more time to do then people would be willing to pay, I would say it could theoretically take a month to document each pcm, we are at 40 right now, so thats a solid 3 years of work, But from the sounds of it the original poster wants it included free of charge with the $500 interface which is just not realistic in this case.
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...
A wise man once said "google it"
ive read his posts, and they are informative. where he leaves off is the experimentation and explanation of it. its not that he should, its that someones done a lot of it for the community just not in step by step form.
Im not asking for a written book. Maybe I searched wrong... Is there a writeup of a summary of how the PCM and engine work together? Maybe im asking the question wrong.... Is there something written like the order in which the tables relate to what is going on?
Like step one.. turn the key on and crank the engine, its obviously going to read off the cranking VE table and ...What else? Then after its running it moves to afterstart enrichment.. right?? then to x and then all fueling is done by x and y tables and how many more?
My main problem im trying to chase is after starting my AFR moves... not sure how many tables affect startup and afterstart. That and my injector pulse i cant get below 3.0ms and im not sure if some other random table is controlling it. There is no where I can find that tells me which sequence the startup goes by.. im making some progress but its all random shots in the dark.
This is exactly what I was saying, we don't know nor do we have the time or manpower to look into this. Whatever is in the help file is the information we have.
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...
A wise man once said "google it"
These are the basic for generating rapid and informative responses to posts:
1. Post calibration file. [*.hpt]
2. Post log file exhibiting behavior in question (preferably with supporting PIDs to your query). [*.hpl]
3. Post what concerns you about what you are experiencing/seeing/feeling.
4. List vehicle type, engine type, mechanical and software modifications.
Common sense needs to be used when calibrating, as well as not requiring oneself to be spoon-fed every tidbit of information to a specific platform for which there are numerous methods to achieve a desired result.If you know how to work on cars, and know how to use the scanner, you should be able to navigate through tables and see what is affecting what. We all learned this way.
I have posted all that. Apparently im like the only person in the country with high imp 160# injectors.... which obviously involves a little bit more in-depth knowledge of what table does what and how one affects the other.These are the basic for generating rapid and informative responses to posts:
1. Post calibration file. [*.hpt]
2. Post log file exhibiting behavior in question (preferably with supporting PIDs to your query). [*.hpl]
3. Post what concerns you about what you are experiencing/seeing/feeling.
4. List vehicle type, engine type, mechanical and software modifications.
Common sense needs to be used when calibrating, as well as not requiring oneself to be spoon-fed every tidbit of information to a specific platform for which there are numerous methods to achieve a desired result.
If I may, I fully agree that some one that is good with this stuff should rite a book on how all the tables work. ie. If you are setting idel all thes tables work together and this is the order that you do them and so on. BUT here is the problum and I just whent thru this with one of the well know tunners that has writen books and is know to be one of the best guys out there. very few people out there are willing to pay for it because like most ever thing in life today every one thinks it is to much they should get it for free. I as a buisness owner am more then willing to pay for it if some one had a book that was well writen for the popular plat forms such as corvette, camaro, ect just the top 10 say ecm's that are out there I would be happy to pay $500.00 to $600.00 for it but most guys would lay down and cry. I look at like this it took some one hundreds of hours to get that info they need to be payed for it. I have seen in thes threads guys have spent 2 and 3 days or more trying to fix a problum if I could go to a book and get the rite stuff in like 15 min I have more then payed for the book three tomes over just in one shot. And you dont look so stupped in front of your customer keeping a car for three days to fix it what is that worth.
P.S. Sorry I can not type well but you get my point. But what I do think is that some one should open a hot line at HP or some where that you can call and they have a way to link onto your lap top they could help you thru the hard parts for like $3.00 per min or $75.00 an hour I would love that and they could get payed for teaching us.
Well there you go!
I charge 125.00 an hour and can access your pc at the same time. If you watch 250.00, If you help 500.00 .
PS I have a number.. Or if you really wana learn, buy a book take a class or read the forum.
.
Last edited by Google; 06-05-2011 at 01:30 PM.
We Can Fix Your Bricked PCM Or Your YYYYYY OS ID
No, sorry, that's impossible. What they'd need to teach you is about 20 yrs worth education in math, physics, chemistry, electrical and mechanical engineering, and computer science. Not gonna happen in an hour, not even at 500$/hr. Teaching you which button to push is not worth it, if you cant figure that much out, the actual process of tuning is completely outside your reach. And even if you figure out the buttons, the actual process of tuning is so complicated you're not gonna learn it in dozens of hours. Of course this hasnt stopped many 'tuning schools' from releasing their (frankly laughable) checklists, 'tuning trees' and many other forms of snake oil. Greg Banish is the only one that comes close to giving you education. The rest of them don't even do training, they just want to take your money.
There are too many variables, hardware parts, platforms, model years, ECU types to have a checklist to run through. This is not a checklist sort of business, this takes deep understanding of the underlying processes, because what might work perfectly fine for some cars, completely falls apart on others. Look at what happened to the parametric VE tables in the newer computers. Most people completely gave up, didn't even try, and just went with a pure MAF setup. The few that understood what changed, why it changed, managed to run adapt to it without much problems. This pattern will continue, your average gearhead will stay at the same level, while the complexity of the ECU's will continue to skyrocket, so people will be turning off more and more tables, options, modes, and modifiers.
Tuning suites are not an equivalent of a screwdriver. It's not for everybody, you wont know how to use it right away, and there is no instruction manual. And due to their constantly evolving nature, the fact that the companies can even support all the newly released ECU's in a timely manner is kinda amazing.
But who here would be the one to help manning the phone lines? Should we pull one of our engineers from their job? I can tell you right now if you are having an idle problem that you can't figure out neither would they in the business that we do all they need to know is how to use IDA, they aren't troubleshooters and on a day to day basis don't even need to know what our user software looks like for that matter. Should it be me? As if 100+ emails a day doesn't keep me busy enough, the fact that I haven't tuned a car other than my own in 4 years so other than reading the new "trends" online I'm a bit rusty and I probably use the search button more than anyone. Should we hire someone at $8 an hour like autozone so you can get "autozone" type help
Our head engineer is probably the only one that would be able to do this for each and every application but having him man the phone lines is not an option.
There are really only a handful of guys that reverse engineer these pcm's and know what they are doing in that respect and its not easy to find one, and we would much rather use their knowledge rather than having them answer phones all day.
-Bill
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...
A wise man once said "google it"
Maybe I did not make my self clear. I am not saying to completly try and teach some one everything, all I am saying is when you get to a point that you have tryed many times and just cant get it, it would be nice to get help over that one point and move on. The idel thing was just an example Bill. even if you are a great mecanic that fully under standes how the engine works and maybe you have been tunning top fuel cars for 20 years. If you are not good with a computer or not used to how the tables work it is nice to have some one there to teach you the basics then as the ecm's change from platform to platform you have the basic idea then it is easer to follow it. Besides who ever it is that keeps talking about go hunt for it instead of it just being handed to you that makes no sense if some one is trying to learn the rite way to do somthing and they are willing to pay for it there is nothing wrong with that. Or are you saying that guys who pay to go to school and have some one teach them to be a doctor or what ever there lazy to. Did you school teacher tell you to go door to door and find your math work or did you set in the class and he or she showed you the rite way to do it. It is a stupid buisness idea to wast hours trying to hunt somthing down if you can get the rite way with a phone call. that is a wast of money and time. and in the end you still learend the rite way to do things. If you had to go to court would you try and learn how to be a lawer or just call one. And as far as who would do it you could pay some one 30.00 an hour just say and if he only worked 4 hours a day on the phone you doubled your money and the rest of the time he could help around the shop and that would be free labor. and looking at all the post on the forum I think 4 hours a day would be no trouble
Yeah I get where your coming from but the fact is there simply aren't alot of knowledable people when it comes to what you are talking about and the ones that are will command alot more than $30/hr lol...think about how many engineers work on a gm pcm, I'm talking a single pcm when we support around 40...punch those numbers in a calculator
Last edited by Bill@HPTuners; 06-05-2011 at 05:12 PM.
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...
A wise man once said "google it"
