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Thread: Please help find whats missing from my settings. Boosted 2.4l LE5

  1. #201
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    I will do a write up on the sky forum and link when Im done.

  2. #202
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    Here's my write up if you're interested!

    http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f2...48/#post564341

  3. #203
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    Have you started using lambda for fueling error yet? I have been tuning my N/A LE5 E67 for a few years now and am tired of the issues with stoich not equiling 14.68 and skewing my AFR error, so I changed my AEM UEGO over to lambda tonight and started to try and set up PIDs and histograms. I will test what I did tomorrow and see if it works.
    2006 Pontiac GTO 6.0L LS2 E40 6 Speed Manual
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  4. #204
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    Yes I have done that. I took the stock maf high and low and used those tables. It ended up being close to 5% off. It is + or - 2 right now so its as close as ill get it.

  5. #205
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtabbs View Post
    Have you started using lambda for fueling error yet? I have been tuning my N/A LE5 E67 for a few years now and am tired of the issues with stoich not equiling 14.68 and skewing my AFR error, so I changed my AEM UEGO over to lambda tonight and started to try and set up PIDs and histograms. I will test what I did tomorrow and see if it works.
    Do you tune with closed loop and fuel trim learn off? If not you should. LaserRacer helped me out with these PIDs.

    User defined perameters: afr commanded = ([AUX.20012]/14.7)*9.76

    Aux.20012 is my wideband input.

    The last number is the stoich set in the ecu.

    Afr Error = 100*([USER.9004]-[SENS.121])/[SENS.121]

    User.9004 is my parameter for afr commanded.

    Then create a histogram for afr error high and afr error low. Add the PID you just made for afr error and ofcorse add MAF freq vs rpm high and low.

    Its also a good idea to keep your fans on high. Got that one from HHRfreek.

  6. #206
    Advanced Tuner laser_racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtabbs View Post
    Have you started using lambda for fueling error yet? I have been tuning my N/A LE5 E67 for a few years now and am tired of the issues with stoich not equiling 14.68 and skewing my AFR error, so I changed my AEM UEGO over to lambda tonight and started to try and set up PIDs and histograms. I will test what I did tomorrow and see if it works.
    Just me wondering but how come you want to run your wideband in lambda for? I mean you can do that, but you could leave it gas afr so you will know for sure if you are lean or not. Also being in lambda on the wideband doesn't affect how the hp tuner sees the wideband.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by laser_racer View Post
    Just me wondering but how come you want to run your wideband in lambda for? I mean you can do that, but you could leave it gas afr so you will know for sure if you are lean or not. Also being in lambda on the wideband doesn't affect how the hp tuner sees the wideband.
    ^this

    wideband controller just outputs a voltage. Your gauge does some math and turns that into afr for gas. You have hpt setup to do some math with the voltage to get afr for gas. The data stays the same, you'd only change what it looks like.
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  8. #208
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    These guys are correct. Try doing what I posted for logging afr error. Drive around and make sure you have atleast 20 counts per cell and copy then paste special multiply by % then when its close multiply % - half.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlvrSky07 View Post
    Do you tune with closed loop and fuel trim learn off? If not you should. LaserRacer helped me out with these PIDs.

    User defined perameters: afr commanded = ([AUX.20012]/14.7)*9.76

    Aux.20012 is my wideband input.

    The last number is the stoich set in the ecu.

    Afr Error = 100*([USER.9004]-[SENS.121])/[SENS.121]

    User.9004 is my parameter for afr commanded.

    Then create a histogram for afr error high and afr error low. Add the PID you just made for afr error and ofcorse add MAF freq vs rpm high and low.

    Its also a good idea to keep your fans on high. Got that one from HHRfreek.
    So this is what I have come up with;

    User defined EIO input on input 1, [AUX.20121]
    Wide Band O2 - AEM in Lambda
    V/7.325+0.683
    This I found on here in this post. I still need to confirm this is correct, but I have no reason to believe that is incorrect.

    User defined parameter 4
    Lambda Error in %
    Function 100*([AUX.20121]-[PID.68])/[PID.68]
    [PID.68] = Commanded EQ Ratio (SAE) - Same as commanded AFR, just in lambda

    Histogram - VE Lambda Error
    PID: Lambda Error
    Units: %
    Decimals: 2
    Filter: [SENS.90]>20 this is so that I don't get coast down values.
    Hits required: 50
    Sensor: MAP in kPa
    Labels: 15,21,26,32,38,43,49,54,60,66,71,77,82,88,94,99,10 5
    Sensor: Engine Speed in rpm
    Labels: 400,800,1200,1600,2000,2400,2800,3200,3600,4000,44 00,4800,5200,5600,6000,6400,6800

    I originally started tuning in open loop, but the issues using AFR error would take me leaner and leaner out of control. I then started using closed loop and STFT error.


    Quote Originally Posted by laser_racer View Post
    Just me wondering but how come you want to run your wideband in lambda for? I mean you can do that, but you could leave it gas afr so you will know for sure if you are lean or not. Also being in lambda on the wideband doesn't affect how the hp tuner sees the wideband.
    A cheaper wideband such as an AEM or Inovative LC1, LM1 is not actually an AFR meter. It only takes lambda data and converts it to stoich 14.68 for lambda1. Using AFR with a lambda sensor, you can never truly dial in AFR only stoich and difference from stoich. Using lambda for everything now, I only have to convert once what my commanded stoich I want and my PE. I now will get true readings and no longer have to be concerned about my guage actually converting lambda to AFR. This will help tremendusly with fuel that I can not control the level of Ethanol in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
    ^this

    wideband controller just outputs a voltage. Your gauge does some math and turns that into afr for gas. You have hpt setup to do some math with the voltage to get afr for gas. The data stays the same, you'd only change what it looks like.
    See above, I now no longer have to convert stoich to AFR to lambda. I know that correct crusing lambda = 1 and PE = .88


    Quote Originally Posted by SlvrSky07 View Post
    These guys are correct. Try doing what I posted for logging afr error. Drive around and make sure you have atleast 20 counts per cell and copy then paste special multiply by % then when its close multiply % - half.
    Like I stated, I have been doing this for a few years and with AFR error, it just never came out right. I can already see that my lambda readings are accurate as they match my STFT Error.

    I am attaching my config and my log from my drive home tonight. Feel free to check it out and use it if you like. The only thing I have to straighten out is my Lambda Guage.
    Last edited by dtabbs; 06-13-2012 at 08:22 PM.
    2006 Pontiac GTO 6.0L LS2 E40 6 Speed Manual
    2007 Pontiac G5-GT 2.4L LE5 E67 5 Speed Manual

  10. #210
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    How far off is it? You will never get it perfect. I think +- 4% is what to shoot for.

  11. #211
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    It also looks like from what I see is that the PE isnt set right or the maf at high freq is off since it was running .95 Lambda when you are at WOT. Do you have the tune you can post?

  12. #212
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    In reference to scale, I am only talking about the numbers in the HPTuners gauge display for the major ticks. It looks like you can not use a value less than one and it also does not support decimals. I need it to go from .75 to 1.15 lambda to match my physical gauge.

    I checked this morning, the difference from my physical gauge readout to what is being reported in HPT and it looks like I am .02 (two hundredths) off in HPT, so I will have to adjust my user defined EIO to make it match.
    Last edited by dtabbs; 06-14-2012 at 10:46 AM.
    2006 Pontiac GTO 6.0L LS2 E40 6 Speed Manual
    2007 Pontiac G5-GT 2.4L LE5 E67 5 Speed Manual

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlvrSky07 View Post
    It also looks like from what I see is that the PE isnt set right or the maf at high freq is off since it was running .95 Lambda when you are at WOT. Do you have the tune you can post?
    I was tuning VE without PE enabled, which caused my VE to become very flat. I have now started to tune with PE enabled so that I am not so lean when I get up around 95kPa and 80% plus TPS.

    I posted a tune in this thread here and I probably have not touched my PE since that posting.
    Last edited by dtabbs; 06-14-2012 at 10:52 AM.
    2006 Pontiac GTO 6.0L LS2 E40 6 Speed Manual
    2007 Pontiac G5-GT 2.4L LE5 E67 5 Speed Manual

  14. #214
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    I have not done any ve tuning with my ecu since got a 5 dimensional map but I did do the VE table on my friends ION redline. I got it pretty close in closed loop it was about +- 3% if I remember correctly.

    I tried doing logging the error and copy and pasting the % error but it became flat like you said. I ended up having him drive around and watching what cels were rich and lean and making the changes of what I thought they should be. Then I smoothed the map out and it turned out nicely. Make sure you have the settings correct before you do the VE tuning. A good how to guide on this is found here .

  15. #215
    Advanced Tuner laser_racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtabbs View Post
    I was tuning VE without PE enabled, which caused my VE to become very flat. I have now started to tune with PE enabled so that I am not so lean when I get up around 95kPa and 80% plus TPS.

    I posted a tune in this thread here and I probably have not touched my PE since that posting.

    What mods do you have on this car you are tunning? From what I see some far you have stock injectors in the car from that tune you posted. When tuning fuel trims usually you do stft+ltft to help dial it in cause the short term make quick changes to help dial in the ltft.

  16. #216
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    My car only has a GMPP CAI, ported and polished throttle body, smoothed out intake manifold, ZZP midlength header and catted down pipe and GMPP cat back. Quite a few other things but that is all the power parts.

    Here is a dyno graph from way back before I did the TB and manifold. Not bad for only having 173HP at the crank from the factory. This was also before I started doing my own tuning.



    As well, here is my estimated VE table (based on LS2) from after my drive home this evening.



    I have been wanting to put a M62 on it from a LSJ for quite a while now and I think I will probably do that in a couple of months. This is just my daily driver car though. My GTO is my baby and gets more $ even though it only has 2,476 miles on it.
    2006 Pontiac GTO 6.0L LS2 E40 6 Speed Manual
    2007 Pontiac G5-GT 2.4L LE5 E67 5 Speed Manual

  17. #217
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    Does your G5 have VVT? I dont have a primary VE table like that for my le5.

  18. #218
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    From what I have read and previous experience I would suggest doing the VE tuning for idle, and light load driving. I always thought you should stay out of PE mode for that since its better to run WOT off the MAF. Also the map should look more like the one I did. Maybe try smoothing yours out? Am I correct Laser_racer?

  19. #219
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    Mine does have VVT and I believe that is what causes the dip at about 3K. I could lock the cams, but it is pretty consistant with what I am doing. If you tune like I am by lambda error and not STFT, you can tune VE with PE as it is true commanded and the ECM is not adjusting your trims. I tuned my VE previously without PE and that is what is causing me to go lean in my logs above 95kPa and 80% TPS.

    The VE model I posted is what it is in a LS2 VE when using the bluecat/ktoonsez app. I just took it and pasted it in to a LS2 tune that I have and took a screen shot. I keep a model charted in an excel spreadsheet for a sanity check so I can make sure it is not messed up when transfering from app to app as that tends to happen time to time. The excel chart is not as pretty though.
    2006 Pontiac GTO 6.0L LS2 E40 6 Speed Manual
    2007 Pontiac G5-GT 2.4L LE5 E67 5 Speed Manual

  20. #220
    Tuner SlvrSky07's Avatar
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    Ah ok. I didn't do any kind of VE tuning on my car and it runs awesome. I had some advise from Greg Banish about tuning this type of car with VVT and e67 ecu.
    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    Plotting Lambda error against MAP, RPM, and VVT angle would require a 3d cuboid histogram instead of just a common two axis table like you're used to looking at. HPT (and even BlueCat's EQ<>VE tool) is not set up to compensate for this. Your best bet is to lock the cam positions zero and change ONLY the base (constant, RPM, RPM^2, MAP, MAP^2, MAP.RPM) values for the boosted region and leave the intake/exhaust coefficients alone unless you have some much more powerful polynomial regression software/toolset. Hopefully you won't be too far from stock with the OE cams/heads/intake and you'll just be traveling further up the boost/MAP axis. In all likelihood, you probably just need to make sure your new MAF curve is right and valid for larger than stock airflows.