LNF New Parameters

[gmtech16450yz]

actually, it looks like GM define this axis differently between the solstice and cobalt. I'll have to add the actual axis in there instead of hardcoding it. It won't display nice text anymore. it will just show 0,1,2,3,4,5,7 or 0,1,2,4,5,6,7 or something else... You'll need to know that 0 = P/N and 7 = Rev (for auto only).

For manual trans the current gear is detected via RPM/VSS ratio's it can't detect reverse gear.

Interesting. I wouldn't waste a bunch of time on it if it gets involved, it's really a trivial problem.

I'm not seeing any changes in pedal vs. throttle mapping on the new damping tables, no matter what I change the 1 second delay is still there. The throttle will follow the pedal exactly until about 50%, then it lags behind pedal position until it's at 100%. I'm still not sure this is a super big problem because I just don't think it's wise to go from 0 to 100% in an instant anyway.

There is another issue that many of us have been trying to work around, it's an ignition timing issue. This is a huge issue, I'm betting every LNF tuner or vendor has this problem if they know it or not.

If you go full throttle from around 2000-2500rpm, at between 2800 to 3000rpm the ign timing will drop sometimes as much as 15*. If you go full throttle starting around 3000rpm, the ign timing drop will occur between 3800 to 4000rpm, and again, as much as a 15 degree drop. What this feels like when you're driving is a very sharp "hit" of power when the timing goes back up to desired, or what you've put in the tables. I'm sure most every LNF driver has felt this, and probably thought it was a boost spike, it's not. Instantly going from super retarded ign timing to 15* is a pretty big jolt of power.

I've worked around this in the past by manipulating the way the ECM calculates torque, making it think the torque is way too low sometimes results in the ign timing staying at desired without making this big drop. It's a backwards way of fixing the problem though, because we don't have control over whatever is making the timing dump. Believe me, I've tried every table we have in this LNF and nothing directly effects this issue. This issue is a huge deal, if you look at dyno charts from just about any vendor or tuner you will see a dip and then a jump in power. Most of the time it's just very hard to make power below 3k rpm because of this, that's why many vendors don't show dyno charts below 3k or even 4k rpms.

I'm guessing there's some other ign timing table that has direct control over this, like a torque management tip-in timing retard or some sort of overboost (?) triggered timing retard, or maybe piston protection timing retard? Changing what the ECM "thinks" the delivered torque is definitely has an effect on this, for instance if you go way higher on the "Optimum Spark" tables you can get rid of the timing drop, but only in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, and not without raising other issues. Optimum Torque and Lambda Efficiency also has some effect on it, but again, not directly and not without bringing in other issues.

I'll post a couple screen shots of what I'm talking about, it should be pretty easy to see the timing drop, then jump back up to what is commanded in the tables. I'll also post a picture of 3rd gear with it gone, by manipulating the torque calculating tables, but again, it still does it in 1st and 2nd gears.

This is a frustrating one for me, and others too. Dave from DDM brought this up to me awhile back and I started to look back into it again. His exact words to me were, "Have you figured out why we have no ignition timing control under 3k rpms, or how to get control?" He also mentioned that every dyno chart he's seen from his competitors shows the same power drop, then surge.

You guys have done so much for us on this lately, I'm so happy to have more control over this ECM. If there's any way you can look into this I would say this is a pretty big issue that just about every LNF tuner and vendor deals with, or notices the power drop and surge and figures it's boost spike related.

Thanks Chris, and Bill!

John

This shows the drop...


This shows the timing going back to 22* (from 6* during the drop)...


This one shows that it will follow what's commanded in the ign timing tables if you manipulate the torque calculations drastically... (if you look to the left of the marker line you can see the timing did actually drop in the exact same spot it always does, but only 2 degrees this time instead of 15*)


Oh, BTW, these shots show the throttle lagging behind the pedal from 50% to 100%.

Thanks guys!

[ttypecamaro]

I've noticed the timing dump too. I think it seems to be related to boost/map/load slope. It could be a knock-preventative "feature" similar to tip-in retard.

[Iam Broke]

I just checked last nights log and my timing at throttle stab cut back to 13.5* at 3500, I command 15* there. I do add just a bit of throttle to load third gear before I nail it though. Trying to prevent the Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing. No tip in retard in the tables though.

[gmtech16450yz]

CAT WARMUP DELETE WORKS!!!!!!!!!

Wow, 24* ign timing, 30% airload and 7% tps, amazing! That's a lot better than -15* and 70% airload on a cold start.

Tom, I never thought about this but can a Cobalt get anywhere near 300% airloads in 2nd or even 3rd gear at like 3k rpm? Not saying the motor or tune can't do it, I'm talking about traction. That's probably why this problem shows up more on the Kappa's, and also on the dyno's or at the tracks when the Cobalt guys have slicks on. When this shows up the worst is 2nd or 3rd gear, go full throttle at 2500 or so and hold it till 4500. If you're not getting traction I don't think you're seeing this problem.

Any other Kappa guys out there that can chime in on this? Or Cobalt guys that have also seen it? Take a look at some of the dyno charts that have been posted on the forums, either they start at 3500 or 4000, or they have a big drop then surge in the power.

BTW Nick, thanks for the actual fuel rail pressure pid suggestion, and thanks Chris for putting it in. Now we can see problems we didn't even know we had! I've just seen a dip in my logs down to 1600psi actual when 2200 is desired. Makes me a little worried about my bigger turbo decision that I'm about to make. That's on E47 also. This ign timing thing is also related to that, when timing dumps efficiency dumps also and it puts way more stress on the fueling.

[silverbullet08]

I have seen this when the car decides to hook up good on a third gear pull. Ive seen up to 326% load. This was at the lower end of 3rd gear and timing command was about 25*. Timing actual saw about 13*-14*.... I had talked to Tom about this a long time ago and he said to check the tip in retard but that was all the control we had

[Chris@HPTuners]

Interesting. I wouldn't waste a bunch of time on it if it gets involved, it's really a trivial problem.

I'm not seeing any changes in pedal vs. throttle mapping on the new damping tables, no matter what I change the 1 second delay is still there. The throttle will follow the pedal exactly until about 50%, then it lags behind pedal position until it's at 100%. I'm still not sure this is a super big problem because I just don't think it's wise to go from 0 to 100% in an instant anyway.

There is another issue that many of us have been trying to work around, it's an ignition timing issue. This is a huge issue, I'm betting every LNF tuner or vendor has this problem if they know it or not.

If you go full throttle from around 2000-2500rpm, at between 2800 to 3000rpm the ign timing will drop sometimes as much as 15*. If you go full throttle starting around 3000rpm, the ign timing drop will occur between 3800 to 4000rpm, and again, as much as a 15 degree drop. What this feels like when you're driving is a very sharp "hit" of power when the timing goes back up to desired, or what you've put in the tables. I'm sure most every LNF driver has felt this, and probably thought it was a boost spike, it's not. Instantly going from super retarded ign timing to 15* is a pretty big jolt of power.

I've worked around this in the past by manipulating the way the ECM calculates torque, making it think the torque is way too low sometimes results in the ign timing staying at desired without making this big drop. It's a backwards way of fixing the problem though, because we don't have control over whatever is making the timing dump. Believe me, I've tried every table we have in this LNF and nothing directly effects this issue. This issue is a huge deal, if you look at dyno charts from just about any vendor or tuner you will see a dip and then a jump in power. Most of the time it's just very hard to make power below 3k rpm because of this, that's why many vendors don't show dyno charts below 3k or even 4k rpms.

I'm guessing there's some other ign timing table that has direct control over this, like a torque management tip-in timing retard or some sort of overboost (?) triggered timing retard, or maybe piston protection timing retard? Changing what the ECM "thinks" the delivered torque is definitely has an effect on this, for instance if you go way higher on the "Optimum Spark" tables you can get rid of the timing drop, but only in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, and not without raising other issues. Optimum Torque and Lambda Efficiency also has some effect on it, but again, not directly and not without bringing in other issues.

I'll post a couple screen shots of what I'm talking about, it should be pretty easy to see the timing drop, then jump back up to what is commanded in the tables. I'll also post a picture of 3rd gear with it gone, by manipulating the torque calculating tables, but again, it still does it in 1st and 2nd gears.

This is a frustrating one for me, and others too. Dave from DDM brought this up to me awhile back and I started to look back into it again. His exact words to me were, "Have you figured out why we have no ignition timing control under 3k rpms, or how to get control?" He also mentioned that every dyno chart he's seen from his competitors shows the same power drop, then surge.

You guys have done so much for us on this lately, I'm so happy to have more control over this ECM. If there's any way you can look into this I would say this is a pretty big issue that just about every LNF tuner and vendor deals with, or notices the power drop and surge and figures it's boost spike related.

Thanks Chris, and Bill!

John

This shows the drop...


This shows the timing going back to 22* (from 6* during the drop)...


This one shows that it will follow what's commanded in the ign timing tables if you manipulate the torque calculations drastically... (if you look to the left of the marker line you can see the timing did actually drop in the exact same spot it always does, but only 2 degrees this time instead of 15*)


Oh, BTW, these shots show the throttle lagging behind the pedal from 50% to 100%.

Thanks guys!

just to be sure here you've set the Load damping to "disable" and the load damping ETC limit table to max.

[justmike]

ok new beta should be up with the load damping table maximum fixed (sorry!) and also master diable for the whole catalyst heating feature.

Chris...

Do you have to email support or if you did will the beta that is posted be this one? Hard to tell as with the previous one there was no point numbers listed in the file name on the site other then 2.23 beta.

[gmtech16450yz]

just to be sure here you've set the Load damping to "disable" and the load damping ETC limit table to max.

Yep, tried that and also setting it back to "enabled" and setting all the modifiers to max. Tip in is zeroed, dynamic knock retard is zeroed, have tried zeroing the entire max KR table, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah, I was hoping this load damping new stuff would have an effect on the timing issue but it didn't. I'm more concerned about the ign timing issue than the throttle delay. I think there's more hp and trq to be had with fixing the timing dump than anything the throttle delay could bring. Especially for guys like me running a bigger throttle body, 70% or so is probably as much flow as when the stock throttle plate is at a full 100% anyway.

Thanks for checking in Chris! I'm crossing my fingers on this one. Especially with the E47 and E85 tunes, ign timing and full control over it is HUGE.

[gmtech16450yz]

Do you have to email support or if you did will the beta that is posted be this one? Hard to tell as with the previous one there was no point numbers listed in the file name on the site other then 2.23 beta.

Don't email support if there's a 2.23 listed on your customer page. It will be the latest beta whenever you download it. Once it's downloaded you can check the version number, or just try to install it. If it's the same as you already have it will go to the "Modify or Remove" dialog window. If it's a new version it will install normally.

(just trying to help Bill and Chris)

[Bill@HPTuners]

Do you have to email support or if you did will the beta that is posted be this one? Hard to tell as with the previous one there was no point numbers listed in the file name on the site other then 2.23 beta.

It would likely be posted on your customer page now.

[justmike]

It would likely be posted on your customer page now.

Yep figured that out just a minute ago. 2.23.258 It would be helpful to have that number somewhere in the file name on the customer page so you knew for sure

[Bill@HPTuners]

Yeah we've talked about this in the past, likely not going to happen anytime soon. Just assume if you didn't download in the past 24hrs that its a new version since we build a new beta almost daily now.

[gmtech16450yz]

Yeah we've talked about this in the past, likely not going to happen anytime soon. Just assume if you didn't download in the past 24hrs that its a new version since we build a new beta almost daily now.

I think the problem is people don't realize it's a LINK to the server location where you put the latest beta after you compile it, it's not the actual file itself. It's obviously easy to just replace whatever beta is at that link's location with the latest, but it would be difficult to put the actual latest beta number in every single customers page every night. Right?

Maybe it would be easier for people to understand if you just put "Download the Latest Beta Here" as the link dialog instead of "Download VCM Suite 2.23 Beta"? That way you wouldn't have to put the actual version number but people would still realize it's the latest. ?? That way you'd get less questions and more time to work on our ECM's right?!!!!!

[Iam Broke]

CAT WARMUP DELETE WORKS!!!!!!!!!

Wow, 24* ign timing, 30% airload and 7% tps, amazing! That's a lot better than -15* and 70% airload on a cold start.

Tom, I never thought about this but can a Cobalt get anywhere near 300% airloads in 2nd or even 3rd gear at like 3k rpm? Not saying the motor or tune can't do it, I'm talking about traction. That's probably why this problem shows up more on the Kappa's, and also on the dyno's or at the tracks when the Cobalt guys have slicks on. When this shows up the worst is 2nd or 3rd gear, go full throttle at 2500 or so and hold it till 4500. If you're not getting traction I don't think you're seeing this problem.

Any other Kappa guys out there that can chime in on this? Or Cobalt guys that have also seen it? Take a look at some of the dyno charts that have been posted on the forums, either they start at 3500 or 4000, or they have a big drop then surge in the power.

BTW Nick, thanks for the actual fuel rail pressure pid suggestion, and thanks Chris for putting it in. Now we can see problems we didn't even know we had! I've just seen a dip in my logs down to 1600psi actual when 2200 is desired. Makes me a little worried about my bigger turbo decision that I'm about to make. That's on E47 also. This ign timing thing is also related to that, when timing dumps efficiency dumps also and it puts way more stress on the fueling.

No traction in second, but plenty in third. The screeny I posted above shows when I nail it, 15* commanded nets me about 13.5, then it ramps in right away. I saw 315% airload at a 4k stab tonight, 18* advance, tune commands 23.25 there so some retard is happening. Prob best it does so I don't explode any more plugs. lol.

Edit: BTW, since it learned the E60, my fuel pressure matches commanded fine @ 2175 psi through the pull. IDC around 25 - 29%.

[Bill@HPTuners]

I think the problem is people don't realize it's a LINK to the server location where you put the latest beta after you compile it, it's not the actual file itself. It's obviously easy to just replace whatever beta is at that link's location with the latest, but it would be difficult to put the actual latest beta number in every single customers page every night. Right?

Maybe it would be easier for people to understand if you just put "Download the Latest Beta Here" as the link dialog instead of "Download VCM Suite 2.23 Beta"? That way you wouldn't have to put the actual version number but people would still realize it's the latest. ?? That way you'd get less questions and more time to work on our ECM's right?!!!!!

Believe it or not not many people are confused by it and those that are would still be confused no matter what we renamed it ie Download the latest beta here.

Trust me.

[Iam Broke]

Pressure Limit for Boost works well. No more 27 psi spikes. Set it at 270 kpa for 24.5 psi. Easier than manipulating 6 tables. lol.

[pantherqs]

Fuck. This thread makes me want to keep the LNF.

[Terminator2]

Interesting. I wouldn't waste a bunch of time on it if it gets involved, it's really a trivial problem.

I'm not seeing any changes in pedal vs. throttle mapping on the new damping tables, no matter what I change the 1 second delay is still there. The throttle will follow the pedal exactly until about 50%, then it lags behind pedal position until it's at 100%. I'm still not sure this is a super big problem because I just don't think it's wise to go from 0 to 100% in an instant anyway.

There is another issue that many of us have been trying to work around, it's an ignition timing issue. This is a huge issue, I'm betting every LNF tuner or vendor has this problem if they know it or not.

If you go full throttle from around 2000-2500rpm, at between 2800 to 3000rpm the ign timing will drop sometimes as much as 15*. If you go full throttle starting around 3000rpm, the ign timing drop will occur between 3800 to 4000rpm, and again, as much as a 15 degree drop. What this feels like when you're driving is a very sharp "hit" of power when the timing goes back up to desired, or what you've put in the tables. I'm sure most every LNF driver has felt this, and probably thought it was a boost spike, it's not. Instantly going from super retarded ign timing to 15* is a pretty big jolt of power.

I've worked around this in the past by manipulating the way the ECM calculates torque, making it think the torque is way too low sometimes results in the ign timing staying at desired without making this big drop. It's a backwards way of fixing the problem though, because we don't have control over whatever is making the timing dump. Believe me, I've tried every table we have in this LNF and nothing directly effects this issue. This issue is a huge deal, if you look at dyno charts from just about any vendor or tuner you will see a dip and then a jump in power. Most of the time it's just very hard to make power below 3k rpm because of this, that's why many vendors don't show dyno charts below 3k or even 4k rpms.

I'm guessing there's some other ign timing table that has direct control over this, like a torque management tip-in timing retard or some sort of overboost (?) triggered timing retard, or maybe piston protection timing retard? Changing what the ECM "thinks" the delivered torque is definitely has an effect on this, for instance if you go way higher on the "Optimum Spark" tables you can get rid of the timing drop, but only in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, and not without raising other issues. Optimum Torque and Lambda Efficiency also has some effect on it, but again, not directly and not without bringing in other issues.

I'll post a couple screen shots of what I'm talking about, it should be pretty easy to see the timing drop, then jump back up to what is commanded in the tables. I'll also post a picture of 3rd gear with it gone, by manipulating the torque calculating tables, but again, it still does it in 1st and 2nd gears.

This is a frustrating one for me, and others too. Dave from DDM brought this up to me awhile back and I started to look back into it again. His exact words to me were, "Have you figured out why we have no ignition timing control under 3k rpms, or how to get control?" He also mentioned that every dyno chart he's seen from his competitors shows the same power drop, then surge.

You guys have done so much for us on this lately, I'm so happy to have more control over this ECM. If there's any way you can look into this I would say this is a pretty big issue that just about every LNF tuner and vendor deals with, or notices the power drop and surge and figures it's boost spike related.

Thanks Chris, and Bill!

John

This shows the drop...


This shows the timing going back to 22* (from 6* during the drop)...


This one shows that it will follow what's commanded in the ign timing tables if you manipulate the torque calculations drastically... (if you look to the left of the marker line you can see the timing did actually drop in the exact same spot it always does, but only 2 degrees this time instead of 15*)


Oh, BTW, these shots show the throttle lagging behind the pedal from 50% to 100%.

Thanks guys!

I too experience the timing drop. If I nail it at 2500 RPMs or less in 3rd it will drop sometimes to 0 to -1* advance when commanded is 6-7* no knock is recorded so I believe it is due to a torque management table or possibly the 255% airload PCM limit I always suspected we have and now the temeperature max airload table shows.

[Gremlin85]

Hey Tom did you look at this? I just looked at a Cobalt file and it maxes out at 45%!! Check yours. Now that we can change it I just set mine to 100% on the entire table, I wonder if it'll make my car blow up? Devil hates a coward!

Did you end up doing anything with that table? What are the results? I'm curious but chicken $h!t to play with it too much lol.

[gmtech16450yz]

Did you end up doing anything with that table? What are the results? I'm curious but chicken $h!t to play with it too much lol.

I tried putting the whole table at 100%, but my stock table had 100's in the 50 and 80% columns anyway. I didn't notice any huge difference, and honestly I can't get any of the new "Load Damping" tables to have any effect on throttle, boost or timing. Setting the master between enable and disable doesn't seem to do anything on my OS.

I believe it is due to a torque management table or possibly the 255% airload PCM limit I always suspected we have and now the temeperature max airload table shows.

Good point Term, I also noticed that 255% max in the temp airload table and thought "wth?" If there are hardcoded limits that we won't be able to get around, it makes me think we should be concentrating on the other approaches to getting power out of this ECM. I'm going to post some thoughts below that are NOT directed at you Term, just general thoughts I've been considering gathering and posting and your comment made me think of it again.


So here's a few more things I've discovered about this ECM, it might be obvious to some of you but for others it might shed a little more light...

This ECM is torque based, which means most everything it does is decided by how much torque is requested (by your foot), how much is desired (by throttle angle, boost, timing, etc) and how much is delivered (calculated by map, maf, timing, fuel flow, etc). So once you realize this, making more power can be done by more than one approach.

This is the part I think not everyone realizes. Most try to make more power by raising the requested or desired torque tables, like the DAL's or MALT's. You can also raise power by making the ECM "think" it's not making enough power, or basically it doesn't think it's producing what you're asking for. There's several tables that can do that, some of them are in the newest betas. We've had "Optimum Torque" and "Lambda Efficiency" already, and now we have "Optimum Spark" tables too. These all have a huge effect on power. If you lower the Lambda Efficiency numbers, it will calculate the torque levels lower, thinking it has to make more to match requested. If you raise Optimum Spark numbers, it sees actual ign timing is at, say 30*, you have say 60* in that cell, and the ECM "says" we should be making optimum torque at 60* but we're only at 30* so we need to make more torque by raising timing, boost, throttle, or whatever. As with any of this, BE CAREFUL manipulating some of these tables, you can literally end up going full throttle at 25% pedal position if you put in the wrong numbers. Raising numbers in Optimum Torque will raise delivered torque also. Try cutting the numbers in that table in half and you'll get a good idea of what it does.

Soooo, the cool thing about realizing the power of these other tables is they all compare different things, on different scales. So if you want to manipulate torque by making it think it's producing less at say, a richer mixture only, without effecting leaner mixtures, try working the Lambda Efficiency table. Or the Optimum Torque table, it works similarly to the DAL table, but the DAL table max is 100%, the Opt Torq goes to 210%, so if the DAL table isn't giving you the control you need over a certain rpm or load, try the Opt Torq table. Same idea with the Max Torque tables, you can lower torque with DAL's or MALT's, but what if you only want to lower torque in 1st and 2nd gears? Use the Max Torque vs. RPM vs. Gear table.

Sorry if all this is old news or common sense, I have to believe it isn't old news to everyone. Bottom line is there's more than just DAL's and MALT's in this ECM, and again, there needs to be more discussion so we can all understand more about how all these tables interact. I guarantee NO ONE has a lock on knowing everything there is to know about how these tables effect each other. For a computer with relatively few tables that we have access to, it's amazing how much interaction they all have with each other.

One last thought while I'm rambling... I know for a fact there are MANY more tuners and vendors reading this forum and some of these posts than are responding, why? I know the biggest reason has to be they're too busy doing their own work, but if you have time to read and learn, you should have time to contribute and share! And if you're worried about sharing because maybe you'll be letting your competitors in on your secrets, think about it this way, you'll gain more "secrets" by everyone sharing than you might loose by letting others know what you've learned. In other words, put it out there and you'll get it back ten fold. (Can anyone tell I believe in Karma?!)

And also, if anyone sees something in what I wrote that doesn't seem right or you know is absolutely bogus, let me know. These are my own thoughts and theories and I'm not saying it's all the gospel truth. After all, I didn't build this ECM, I'm assuming a bunch of German dudes did! I'm just trying to figure it out like everybody else in here.