2010 Camaro big Surge with LG G6X3 cam

[mhjoor]

I would appreciate all the comments and advice.
I have big bucking, surging and drivability problems. Car drives badly below 3K cruising or under wide open throttle. I've done some adjustments to the timing, fuel, MAF setting but to no use.

Many say the camshaft is causing this problem. Local tuners, in my part of the world, are saying nothing could be done about it.

Can the G6X3 be tuned to run properly? What should I do with HP setting?

A friend of mine have the same G6X3 setup on Pontiac GXP (except the fast intake) and he surge is only limited to RPM below 1200. While I hear some other LS3 guys are running ok with this camshaft.

I have attached some file and hope than I can get some feedback on the setting.

My set up includes:
Cam LG G6X3
FAST intake
Mild head porting
Underdrive pully
Headers 1.7/8
Magnaflow exhaust
Cold air kit
3.73 gears

[DSteck]

I'll try to take a look at your file once I get to my laptop, which probably won't be until tomorrow. G6X3 isn't a small cam... It will have some drivability issues.

[mhjoor]

I appreciate very much the offer to help.
I installed the cam last week after all the good reports I’ve seen. It seems that it is the most advertised cam for the LS3!! Big power gains and streetable manners. However, have I known that drivability is going to be affected in such manner; I would have selected another cam. I am still helpful that with the correct setting things will improve. What is really confusing is when I drive my friend G8 GXP with same exact camshaft, it only surge below 1200-1300 while in my case all the way to 3000 RPM range and from there things are ok.

One more thing the tuner insisted that I use R5724-9 NGK v-power plug which has heat range of 9 and is not iridium. Is this plug too cold for my mild application! I am thinking of replacing them with stock type 41-985 or TR6ix.

[DSteck]

Jesus... Run a TR6 in that engine and tell your tuner to get f***ed.

Do you have a wideband?

[Sam88gta1]

What air intake do you have on the car? I have 30+ files of that cam in 6speed 2010 Camaro's .I can get you 99% of the way there.

Fire your tuner. A 9 NGK plug is not the correct heat range plug.

[Christian GM]

What air intake do you have on the car? I have 30+ files of that cam in 6speed 2010 Camaro's .I can get you 99% of the way there.

Fire your tuner. A 9 NGK plug is not the correct heat range plug.

Hi guys,

maybe you know I love to understand what I don't know yet...
I was thinking that a plug change was required only for blower application.
I was thinking that cam swap will be fine with standard ACD iridium plug, on NA engines.
I'm wrong?
what are the basis you use to choose a colder plug?

thank you,

bye

[DSteck]

I tell almost everybody to just run a TR6, even if they have a bolt-on LS2 or LS3. The plug isn't too cold for the application, and most people interested in tuning and modding run their engine hard enough to keep the plugs clean anyway. The TR6s are almost a must in cammed and higher compression setups.

[mhjoor]

i used
AEM 2010 Camaro SS Cold Air Intake
if you can send file to see Difference
thanks

[Mep_q8]

try this out for the time being to see if your bucking/surging is fuel related or not..

set PE Delay RPM to 0, Set TPS Enable to 0 and EQ Ratio from 0-2500 to 1.060. If you lose the bucking, I'd go around doing the Virtual VE and getting your fueling done right OR run it in pure MAF and get the fueling sorted out there.

Idle Surge is coz you've add way too much on your RAF.

Whoever tuned your motor should not be tuning for the general public with that work!

[IDRIVEAG8GT]

I appreciate very much the offer to help.
I installed the cam last week after all the good reports I’ve seen. It seems that it is the most advertised cam for the LS3!! Big power gains and streetable manners. However, have I known that drivability is going to be affected in such manner; I would have selected another cam. I am still helpful that with the correct setting things will improve. What is really confusing is when I drive my friend G8 GXP with same exact camshaft, it only surge below 1200-1300 while in my case all the way to 3000 RPM range and from there things are ok.

One more thing the tuner insisted that I use R5724-9 NGK v-power plug which has heat range of 9 and is not iridium. Is this plug too cold for my mild application! I am thinking of replacing them with stock type 41-985 or TR6ix.

Your tuner is a damn fool. Tell him to go shove those plugs up his ass and see if they feel like the right heat range. TR6 buddy, and we'll take it from the top from there.

[mhjoor]

I can’t agree more he is a fool!! 9 heat range is too cold. He also said I have to leave with surge because the camshaft is too big and thats part of life!!

Trailblazin: I will try steps and report if any improvements.

DSteck & IDRIVEAG8GT: Tonight I shall go TR6!

Sam88gta1: kindly share the files. I did provide all my modes.

DSteck: Waiting for your comments after you have a chance to see the files.

I am still curious to know: Is the LG G6X3 cam too wild? Can it be tuned to run without surge or issues in low RPM?

Anyone who uses this cam is willing to share his experience?

My car made (with current set up on regular octane) 437 HP on Mustang Dyno.
For the time being, I am satisfied with power but drivability is my main concern now.

Here is my Dyno test done on May 31st, 2010 before the latest modifications: http://tensaituning.com/blog/?p=28

Thank you all for your offer to assist.

[DSteck]

My friend ran that cam in his LS2 Corvette. When I was done tuning it, it only had bucking below 1400 in lower gears at low loads. It didn't really have a problem in 6th gear even at 1300. I never dumped fuel down low like some people do.

[Sam88gta1]

Sam88gta1: kindly share the files. I did provide all my modes.

This is will get you 99% of the way there.

[ArthurJGuy]

My friend ran that cam in his LS2 Corvette. When I was done tuning it, it only had bucking below 1400 in lower gears at low loads. It didn't really have a problem in 6th gear even at 1300. I never dumped fuel down low like some people do.

I ran the same cam with LS3 heads/intake on my LS2, it had the same behavior.

[DSteck]

Not surprising... My buddy bought that setup off you. Haha.

[turboLS2]

I don't like larger cams like the G5X3 because even though you can bump up the airflow final minimum tables to significantly reduce bucking at lower rpm's you create another problem in the process - the car wants to drive itself down the road when you get off the throttle. Anyway you look at it creating driveability with large cams requires the throttle blade to be open more at all engine loads, which creates the phenomenon that I am talking about. This is why I selected a 223/236 115+4 cam for my LS3 powered C6 - because while it will require some adjustments to this table - with a ported stock TB they will be fairly minimal. This ensures excellent street manners while maintaining a torque peak that is much better suited for street use with track duty on the weekends. The LS3 in particular does not need a big duration to make lots of power, as evidenced by M6 cars making over 500rwhp on a 227/239 cam:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...nd-videos.html

[Sam88gta1]

I don't like larger cams like the G5X3 because even though you can bump up the airflow final minimum tables to significantly reduce bucking at lower rpm's you create another problem in the process - the car wants to drive itself down the road when you get off the throttle. Anyway you look at it creating driveability with large cams requires the throttle blade to be open more at all engine loads, which creates the phenomenon that I am talking about. This is why I selected a 223/236 115+4 cam for my LS3 powered C6 - because while it will require some adjustments to this table - with a ported stock TB they will be fairly minimal. This ensures excellent street manners while maintaining a torque peak that is much better suited for street use with track duty on the weekends. The LS3 in particular does not need a big duration to make lots of power, as evidenced by M6 cars making over 500rwhp on a 227/239 cam:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...nd-videos.html

If you tune these cams the correct way you dont have issues like the car pushing itself down the road. A properly tuned g6x3 will drive just the same as your 223/236 cam and make 15+rwhp more above 4500 rwhp.

The post you quoted had a dyno graph with a 6 hp spike at the end. The car made an honest 495rwhp. That same car with that same combination using a g6x3 would have made an honest 510rwhp. Ive tuned many ls3 g6x3 Corvettes that are able to drive down the road at 1100rpm and maintain 26-30 mpg while doing so without a hint of surge.

I bet you are one of those Spin Monster fans aint ya?

[turboLS2]

If you tune these cams the correct way you dont have issues like the car pushing itself down the road. A properly tuned g6x3 will drive just the same as your 223/236 cam and make 15+rwhp more above 4500 rwhp.

The post you quoted had a dyno graph with a 6 hp spike at the end. The car made an honest 495rwhp. That same car with that same combination using a g6x3 would have made an honest 510rwhp. Ive tuned many ls3 g6x3 Corvettes that are able to drive down the road at 1100rpm and maintain 26-30 mpg while doing so without a hint of surge.

I bet you are one of those Spin Monster fans aint ya?

Re-read my post I didn't say anything about tuning out surging or bucking with big cams being a problem. What I said was the more you adjust the final airflow minimums up to keep the car from surging or bucking you get the feeling the car wants to keep going when you let off the gas - which is of course exactly what you are doing when you adjust the AFM up. The file you posted had adjustments of up to 46% over a stock file in this table, so if you think it won't apply to you then you're not paying attention when you drive the car afterwards. I looked at your file and all you did was adjust the AFM, the startup airflow, and jack all the timing way up in the tables at low rpm's. I could care less about peak power, and for 15rwhp I'll take a cam that isn't a dog below 3500rpm's with a torque peak so high I need a 4000rpm stall converter to mate with it in my car.

As far as Spinmonster I wouldn't take his advice on anything for my car. Most people, for whatever reason, frequently make the mistake of over-camming their cars to acheive peak dyno numbers. Anyway you look it, when you increase duration and overlap in cam selection the minimum throttle position at all engine loads must increase to eliminate bucking and surging. It's a simple concept that I'm not sure why you don't understand

[Sam88gta1]

Re-read my post I didn't say anything about tuning out surging or bucking with big cams being a problem. What I said was the more you adjust the final airflow minimums up to keep the car from surging or bucking you get the feeling the car wants to keep going when you let off the gas - which is of course exactly what you are doing when you adjust the AFM up. The file you posted had adjustments of up to 46% over a stock file in this table, so if you think it won't apply to you then you're not paying attention when you drive the car afterwards. I looked at your file and all you did was adjust the AFM, the startup airflow, and jack all the timing way up in the tables at low rpm's. I could care less about peak power, and for 15rwhp I'll take a cam that isn't a dog below 3500rpm's with a torque peak so high I need a 4000rpm stall converter to mate with it in my car.
It's a simple concept that I'm not sure why you don't understand

I guess im just blind when I drive the car afterwards. Ive never tuned a car with a cruise control feel to it. If you let off the gas at 1300,1200,1100 or 1000rpm it will decelerate. Maybe its the process you are taking to get it to idle stable that causes the run away in gear idle.
I cant tell you how to fix something that I cant duplicate.

If in a race you only see 4000rpm once why would you obsess over that rpm?
How come none of the small cams hold records?

[edcmat-l1]

Re-read my post I didn't say anything about tuning out surging or bucking with big cams being a problem. What I said was the more you adjust the final airflow minimums up to keep the car from surging or bucking you get the feeling the car wants to keep going when you let off the gas - which is of course exactly what you are doing when you adjust the AFM up. The file you posted had adjustments of up to 46% over a stock file in this table, so if you think it won't apply to you then you're not paying attention when you drive the car afterwards. I looked at your file and all you did was adjust the AFM, the startup airflow, and jack all the timing way up in the tables at low rpm's. I could care less about peak power, and for 15rwhp I'll take a cam that isn't a dog below 3500rpm's with a torque peak so high I need a 4000rpm stall converter to mate with it in my car.

As far as Spinmonster I wouldn't take his advice on anything for my car. Most people, for whatever reason, frequently make the mistake of over-camming their cars to acheive peak dyno numbers. Anyway you look it, when you increase duration and overlap in cam selection the minimum throttle position at all engine loads must increase to eliminate bucking and surging. It's a simple concept that I'm not sure why you don't understand

Point is you shouldn't be adjusting idle airflow to eliminate surge, unless it's surging from way too much idle airflow, which is actually quite common in the Gen 3 PCMs. Min idle air is just that. The minimum amount of air needed to idle. A small adjustment above absolute minimum to prevent idle dip on decel is acceptable, but there's other ways to tune for that too.

Tuning fo surge should be done with fueling and spark.