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Thread: Fuel Pump settings with BAP and DW400

  1. #1

    Fuel Pump settings with BAP and DW400

    P1X on e85 an attempting just a mediocre tune with BAP,(18V) DW400, and 1050x. I know internet tuners frown upon it but I've known it's been done to a point since I'm doing it myself and liability is on me. I will post my log but hit almost 91% DC and it couldn't hold my .77 commanded. This was with a 4.5 pulley but put back on 4.75 going forward from here. I'd like to know more about the Fuel System tables in the tune. Stock seems to be at 49% DC any harm in raising this a little? Also the inferred rail pressure. Is it possible to raise some of those pressures to 65ish at the top end to compensate for boost as would be done on a boost referenced return system? Thanks for any input!E85 normal_7kpull_KR_6.hplinferred rail pressure.JPGfuel DC.JPG

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    I would trim your channels list wayyyy down. Make smaller lists depending on what you are trying to tune. Also, double check the defined polling rates for each channel. You are getting very poor polling rates on important channels. For example, on your WOT pass, you only got 7 reports of injector pulse width. That's like 2 samples per second, where you would want at least 10, if not 20.

    Avoid any channel marked (SAE). They poll slower.

    Delete redundant channels: Absolute load (SAE) is just a slow version of air load.

    It's my understanding that you should never raise the max pump DC, as that 49% value represents a safe max for the pump.

    You sure you have enough headroom in your MAF transfer function? You are hitting an 86 us period. Even at 90% duty cycle, you should still have enough injector capacity to hold commanded EQ. I am taking my MU52 injectors to 96% and still holding EQ.

    If you raise inferred rail pressure values in the high flow region, it will think the injector slope is greater and inject less fuel. If you want to touch those tables, hook up an external rail pressure sensor, log actual values vs fuel flow rate, and correct the tables. Log fuel flow rate and you will at least be able to see at what flow rate it is drifting lean.

  3. #3
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    85% is max safe injector duty cycle - above that injection is very hard to control(injector remains practically open). If you see more it's time to go bigger.
    Some injectors will work fine close to 100%, some will just pour fuel into cylinder - better safe than sorry.

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    If anything, flow rate increases as you approach 100% DC, because the off time is too short to appreciably close the injector.

  5. #5
    Thanks CCS86. I will trim down scanner as you suggested. Good catch on the pulse width polling was set at 2hz. I will leave the fuel pump settings alone. I should be good on MAF it’s scaled up to 60us. I may just be running at the limit of the BAP and DW400 at stock fuel pressures with E85. That’s why I was curious if through the tune if you could increase rail pressure. I have pulleyed back up to original and do some logs to see where I’m at with that. Thanks again and any other suggestions or thoughts accepted.

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    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSlo View Post
    Thanks CCS86. I will trim down scanner as you suggested. Good catch on the pulse width polling was set at 2hz. I will leave the fuel pump settings alone. I should be good on MAF it’s scaled up to 60us. I may just be running at the limit of the BAP and DW400 at stock fuel pressures with E85. That’s why I was curious if through the tune if you could increase rail pressure. I have pulleyed back up to original and do some logs to see where I’m at with that. Thanks again and any other suggestions or thoughts accepted.


    With a mechanically regulated, returnless system, you have no direct control of rail pressure. Those are just lookup tables.

    With a rail pressure sensor on my car, I have recorded larger pressure drop at high flows than the stock tables call out. You could try updating the rail pressure at 6.5 lb/min to 42 psi, and linearly interpolate from the 2.0 lb/min value down to 42 psi. That should relieve some of the pressure on STFTs to keep on target.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    With a mechanically regulated, returnless system, you have no direct control of rail pressure. Those are just lookup tables.

    With a rail pressure sensor on my car, I have recorded larger pressure drop at high flows than the stock tables call out. You could try updating the rail pressure at 6.5 lb/min to 42 psi, and linearly interpolate from the 2.0 lb/min value down to 42 psi. That should relieve some of the pressure on STFTs to keep on target.
    Cool thanks! Logging fuel flow now. I’ll do some pulls as is and then as suggested.

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    VMP recommends full of threshold of 3lbs a min. I see yours is .80. Heres a clip from VMP with their boost pump. Hope it helps

    For tuning, we recommending you reduce the Fuel Pump Voltage Table (under Returnless fuel pump) by 1-2 volts all over and fine tune from there by datalogging. On the 11-15 5.0L Mustang the factory single pump is modulated between high and low speeds by the computer. We recommend changing the high speed threshold in the tune (under Returnless fuel pump) from 0.80 lb/min to 3 lb/min (see below) on blower cars. On naturally aspirated cars this value can be raised to 4-5lb/min for NA tunes and lowered back down to 2-3lb/min on the nitrous tune. The same values would be recommended for cars running E85. The 2015-18 5.0L requires slight modification to connector.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner small tuner's Avatar
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    how much whp you are planing to reach with this setting on E85

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    If anything, flow rate increases as you approach 100% DC, because the off time is too short to appreciably close the injector.
    That's exactly what I've said.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rryanfla View Post
    VMP recommends full of threshold of 3lbs a min. I see yours is .80. Heres a clip from VMP with their boost pump. Hope it helps

    For tuning, we recommending you reduce the Fuel Pump Voltage Table (under Returnless fuel pump) by 1-2 volts all over and fine tune from there by datalogging. On the 11-15 5.0L Mustang the factory single pump is modulated between high and low speeds by the computer. We recommend changing the high speed threshold in the tune (under Returnless fuel pump) from 0.80 lb/min to 3 lb/min (see below) on blower cars. On naturally aspirated cars this value can be raised to 4-5lb/min for NA tunes and lowered back down to 2-3lb/min on the nitrous tune. The same values would be recommended for cars running E85. The 2015-18 5.0L requires slight modification to connector.
    Yes That would apply to VMP since it’s constant voltage. I have a JMS and that boosts voltage only above 1/2 throttle. Thanks!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by small tuner View Post
    how much whp you are planing to reach with this setting on E85
    Not sure. I wanted to give the DW400/BAP a shot since pump isn’t overly expensive. Just seeing what I can get away with since I have E85 1/2 mile from my house. I’m sure I’ll eventually go return system but I like to tinker.

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    That's exactly what I've said.

    You might have meant that, but you didn't say it very clearly.

    You stated that as you approach 100% duty cycle, the "injector remains practically open", which is the definition of 100% duty cycle. You also said "some will just pour fuel into cylinder", which is what fuel injectors do. Both statements are vague generalizations.

    Saying specifically that the flow rate / injector slope becomes greater near 100% duty cycle adds important information.

    His main issue is leaning out above 90% DC, which is not caused by this phenomenon. So, your post doesn't help him fix, and somewhat confuses the issue.

  14. #14
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    I didn't have any luck with the DW400, BAP and otherwise stock fuel system. I ended up going with a full fuel system and it resolved my fuel issues. I would recommend to guys buying a $300 BAP and a $260 DW400 fuel pump kit to instead invest that $560 towards a full return style fuel system. You can purchase a budget return style fuel system for $1000 so its literally a stones throw away if you are considering a BAP & fuel pump.
    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...

    A wise man once said "google it"

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    You might have meant that, but you didn't say it very clearly.

    You stated that as you approach 100% duty cycle, the "injector remains practically open", which is the definition of 100% duty cycle. You also said "some will just pour fuel into cylinder", which is what fuel injectors do. Both statements are vague generalizations.

    Saying specifically that the flow rate / injector slope becomes greater near 100% duty cycle adds important information.

    His main issue is leaning out above 90% DC, which is not caused by this phenomenon. So, your post doesn't help him fix, and somewhat confuses the issue.
    No I think my statement was 100% on point and made myself super clear - you just chose to "decode" my post differently.

    This is exactly what his problem is - super lean condition might happen it you are exceeding 85% of DC - ECU will try to safe you from running out of fuel
    but since it can't because there's no DC to wiggle you will end with injector cut.

    You giving anyone an advice that running duty cycle over 85% is fine - is just bad. Stop it.
    Last edited by veeefour; 10-16-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill@HPTuners View Post
    I didn't have any luck with the DW400, BAP and otherwise stock fuel system. I ended up going with a full fuel system and it resolved my fuel issues. I would recommend to guys buying a $300 BAP and a $260 DW400 fuel pump kit to instead invest that $560 towards a full return style fuel system. You can purchase a budget return style fuel system for $1000 so its literally a stones throw away if you are considering a BAP & fuel pump.
    DW400 or Walbro works fine for me - and I prefer it over BAP. You need to hook up an external pressure sensor and tweak your inferred fuel pressure tables.

    700 to the wheel on 100 octane RON on twin turd no issues.

  17. #17
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    No I think my statement was 100% on point and made myself super clear - you just chose to "decode" my post differently.

    This is exactly what his problem is - super lean condition might happen it you are exceeding 85% of DC - ECU will try to safe you from running out of fuel
    but since it can't because there's no DC to wiggle you will end with injector cut.

    You giving anyone an advice that running duty cycle over 85% is fine - is just bad. Stop it.


    Go ahead and refresh me on where I gave the advice that 85%+ DC "is fine".

    Also, let's hear you back up this statement: "super lean condition might happen it you are exceeding 85% of DC - ECU will try to safe you from running out of fuel"

    I have seen no evidence of that. Here's a log showing beautiful fueling beyond 85% DC:
    Attached Files Attached Files

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    DW400 or Walbro works fine for me - and I prefer it over BAP. You need to hook up an external pressure sensor and tweak your inferred fuel pressure tables.

    700 to the wheel on 100 octane RON on twin turd no issues.
    Thanks I will look into the inferred rail pressures

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSlo View Post
    Thanks I will look into the inferred rail pressures
    DW has a Mustang specific kits and has a venturi. DW provides a corrugated nylon tube for venturi but they are prone to fail especially on E85.
    Better use a good submersible gasoline hose - GATES has a very good one.

    Walbro 450LPH has no venturi so you need to fabricate a T, it's much cheaper tho. It comes with a kit that contains a piece of good gasoline hose and a sock.
    It will fit you OEM hat but requires some trimming. I prefer this one because DW400 cost 3x more on this side of the pond.

    The best way to hook up a sensor on a late model Mustang:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Rail-A...72.m2749.l2649

    You can use this sensor:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3305...589b4c4dncBXAH

    Alternatively you can grab stock 2018 fuel rail that has a fuel pressure sensor but that's not even close to be p&p.

    This is something you need to start with - if your inferred pressure tables are off your whole tune will be off.
    You can try Roush inferred values for starter - will be way closer than stock values.
    Last edited by veeefour; 10-16-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Go ahead and refresh me on where I gave the advice that 85%+ DC "is fine".

    Also, let's hear you back up this statement: "super lean condition might happen it you are exceeding 85% of DC - ECU will try to safe you from running out of fuel"

    I have seen no evidence of that. Here's a log showing beautiful fueling beyond 85% DC:
    90% of you posts are about disagreeing, demanding evidence, arguing with everybody. Pure poison.

    If this is what you describe as beautiful fueling there's a long way ahead of you...

    P.S.
    You are pegging your LOAD, your SD model is off. But I'm sure you will have a different approach. Good luck.