Northstar on LS1 PCM

[kman0066]

Hi all,
I'm trying to find a solution to run a 2005 FWD Northstar engine in a car I built. I have the stock PCM (P07) from it but it doesn't seem to be supported by anyone...at ALL!!! I'd really like to use a GM PCM for this because very few aftermarket controllers offer the fueling/spark capabilities for a reasonable cost for a sequential injected, coil-on-plug, V-8 engine. I've also read about a guy modifying the LS1 PCM to work on the early northstars (96-99) and I'm wondering if I can do the same with the 05 model but simpler since because:

The 05 Northstar engine has:
-- 24x crank wheel
-- 1x cam wheel (The northstar has 2 of these for it's 4 cams but I figure I can just use 1 of the sensors to mimic the OHV LS1???)
-- Cable actuated throttle
-- 8 coil-on-plug with built in ignitors (same wiring setup as the LS1 except there are no spark plug wires).
-- Same firing order
-- The same exact MAF sensor

--I'm sure the rest of the sensors are very similar if not interchangeable?

I will run a separate aftermarket trans controller for my 4T80E transmission, that's no problem.

So, my big questions is: Do you think the HP Tuner software combined with an LS1 PCM would enable me to adjust fuel/spark to work with a 4.6L DOHC engine? Anyone see holes in my theory? I'm well aware the tuning would be off but if it CAN be adjusted within specs with the LS1 PCM, then it sounds like it would be a great solution to my problem.

[1998Ws6]

The northstar did use the ls1 pcm in the shelby series 1, I am unfamiliar with the changes in the northstar over the years, but that may be a place to look.


Ryan

[kman0066]

Thanks for the info, I didn't realize they used the LS1 PCM.

Basically 3 big Northstar series involved here, 96-99 (Shelby used this type, it uses a coil bank with 4 coils), 00-03 (This one has coil on plug but each cylinder bank is controlled by an ignition controller), 04-05 (The one I have, has coil on plug with all controlling done by the PCM).

The crank wheels are similar between the years but not completely.

GM Manual Description:
The crankshaft position (CKP) sensor is a 3-wire sensor based on the magneto resistive principle. A magneto resistive sensor uses 2 magnetic pickups between a permanent magnet. As an element such as a reluctor wheel passes the magnets the resulting change in the magnetic field is used by the sensor electronics to produce a digital output pulse. This system uses 2 sensors within the same housing for the V6 engine, and 2 separate sensors for the V8 engine. The powertrain control module (PCM) supplies each sensor a 12-volt reference, low reference, and a signal circuit. The signal circuit returns a digital ON/OFF pulse 24 times per crankshaft revolution.

[kman0066]

My worry with the LS1 PCM is that the crank signal while being the same type and same teeth, might not be sending the same message to the PCM. The Northstar uses 2 crank triggers instead of just 1. I also worry if the coil dwell is the same between the NOrthstar Coil-On-PLugs vs. the LS1 coil-near-plugs.

My other idea is to switch to a 06 Caddy DTS ECM which is tunable but so far I noticed I would need:
a.) 4x camshaft reluctor wheels
b.) 58x crankshaft wheel (this would have to me mounted external because of the component location (middle of crankshaft)
c.) electronic throttle body
d.) electronic gas pedal
e.)E67 PCM (I actually already have one of these)

If I go this route, then the only "tuning" I would need to do is to remove VATS and the ABS/Traction Control logic that pulls timing if components are missing. However, I would have to figure a way to mount a 58x reluctor wheel because I'm not too interested in taking my engine most of the way apart to replace the reluctor wheel. Perhaps I could bolt it to the front of the crank pulley and just weld up a sensor mount like the Megasquirt guys do with the 36-1 wheels. I'm pretty sure I could pop the valve covers off and replace the camshaft wheels easily enough.

Is there a way to run the E67 PCM with a cable throttle body? That would save me from having to purchase the throttle-body and the pedal.

[TimC]

My worry with the LS1 PCM is that the crank signal while being the same type and same teeth, might not be sending the same message to the PCM. The Northstar uses 2 crank triggers instead of just 1. I also worry if the coil dwell is the same between the NOrthstar Coil-On-PLugs vs. the LS1 coil-near-plugs.

My other idea is to switch to a 06 Caddy DTS ECM which is tunable but so far I noticed I would need:
a.) 4x camshaft reluctor wheels
b.) 58x crankshaft wheel (this would have to me mounted external because of the component location (middle of crankshaft)
c.) electronic throttle body
d.) electronic gas pedal
e.)E67 PCM (I actually already have one of these)

If I go this route, then the only "tuning" I would need to do is to remove VATS and the ABS/Traction Control logic that pulls timing if components are missing. However, I would have to figure a way to mount a 58x reluctor wheel because I'm not too interested in taking my engine most of the way apart to replace the reluctor wheel. Perhaps I could bolt it to the front of the crank pulley and just weld up a sensor mount like the Megasquirt guys do with the 36-1 wheels. I'm pretty sure I could pop the valve covers off and replace the camshaft wheels easily enough.

Is there a way to run the E67 PCM with a cable throttle body? That would save me from having to purchase the throttle-body and the pedal.

I think the E67 is going to be way more hassle than it is worth. I would try wiring up the LS1 pcm and see what happens. Be sure to let us know how it goes.

[camaro1]

i know a guy running a northstar with a ls1 pcm, go to the monodax.com forum and send AJxtcman a message,, i think he might also be on here now and then

[kman0066]

I found AJs email address on the Fiero forum and emailed him but haven't heard a reply yet...but I understand some people are busy, hopefully he'll get back to me.

As for using the LS1 PCM, let me run something by you guys and let me know if this is possible. There exists a stock tune for my engine from an 06 E67 PCM and I can wire the LS1 PCM on my engine for sure. Using the HP Tuner software, would I be able to just paste the values from the 06 tables into the LS1 PCM tables? I know the logic is very different between the PCMs but is the view of what and how you edit look the same in the VCM suite? Is it all based off of hard values like RPM, timing degrees? Or do I have to just go of stock reference points? For instance, do you say fire the spark at 270 degrees for a given point or do you say, fire it at 5% past the factory value?

My hesitation on going with the LS1 is that I'm sure the factory LS1 tune is going to be about as far off as it would be starting from scratch on an aftermarket ECU. But if I could somehow swap/paste in values then I would be able to get something at least running.

[TimC]

It'll probably start with the stock LS1 tune. Then tweak it from there. If you find tables in the E67 ecu that are exactly the same as the LS1 table, as far as x and y axis, you can cut and paste those over. If the timing tables are not formatted the same you can still get an idea of what a stock Northstar wants for timing and just change the LS1 tables to match the E67 Northstar tables.

If you don't have a wideband O2 sensor I'd get one.

[AJxtcman]

The Crank reluctor ring is different from 1999 to 2000. The crank sensors are a different type and the location was changed also. The offset in deg is different. In 2006 the cranks were changed again to one sensor and it was located about 90° from the earlier ones.

The 04 and 05's are a different PCM. I have some bins pulled from the chips. They are similar to 04 & 05 RWD ECM's. They are 1mb controllers with a lot of code.

The Shebly calibration is not a modified LS1 calibration! The PCM pin out will show you that.

Maybe you could run it on a 0411 with a car calibration. This issue is the crank sensor and the rate that the Northstar crank sensors fail. You would have to drop down to one sensor and I wouldn't trust one sensor to not leave you stranded

[kman0066]

Yeah, I'm thinking that if I have to change crank sensor and wheel, I might as well go with the 06 setup. I've found a supplier for 58 tooth wheels made in various sizes of rings so I can get one slightly larger than my crank pulley and mount it to that and then I can mount my sensor with a bracket to read the reluctor wheel. I guess now I need to figure out where to clock it when the engine is at TDC and start purchasing all of the sensors and gadgets for the 06.

I don't think there is any hope in using the 05 electronics. I wish someone could figure of these PCMs. I also wish I have figured this out before I bought the engine. If I had just bought any year but 00-05 (maybe even just 04-05), I wouldn't be having these problems.

[AJxtcman]

I have a program that I was working on for a V6 car PCM. Long story. It would run the 4T80E also, but I don't have any time to work on it.

[kman0066]

Do you know if it's possible to get into the 04/05 Northstar PCM and remove the VATS logic and possibly the ABS/traction control? That's really all I'm after. I'd love to be able to tune it...but getting my engine running is really the only thing I have to have.

Perhaps I could start decoding the PCM myself, I am a software developer so I'm very familiar with coding. I know it's a ton of information and stored in hex or something along those lines but I'm not going anywhere anytime soon...literally. What do I need to pull the .bin file and upload a new one to this PCM?

[AJxtcman]

I can send you the bin and some other info, but I don't think you are up for it.

I can set up a system that allow the car to run and drive

[kman0066]

If you could do that, that would be awesome. Would you be up for loading my PCM with those simple changes if I sent it to you with some payment? Just whatever it takes to get the PCM to start without the VATS signal (or at least not the original one) and not go into the limp-home mode.

[planethax]

Hmmm this is exactly where I am stuck.

The offset of the CKP sensor(s) on the N* will be different than the LS1.

So, can we change that in HPT? (I have purchased HPT now, just have not had anytime to load software and look at it)


Or is there a Trigger wheel I could use instead?


(sorry to revive an old thread, found this while searching)

[AJxtcman]

Hmmm this is exactly where I am stuck.

The offset of the CKP sensor(s) on the N* will be different than the LS1.

So, can we change that in HPT? (I have purchased HPT now, just have not had anytime to load software and look at it)


Or is there a Trigger wheel I could use instead?


(sorry to revive an old thread, found this while searching)

I will be you a calibration for a 2001 F-body OSID 12202088
If everything fails we will have to run a the older coil pack on the engine

[planethax]

There is my catch;
This customer refuses to do so, he wants to use the 2000+ Type coils.

[planethax]

That and if IIRC the block and CKP sensors are different in his engine?

[planethax]

Really hoping not to have to run a standalone system.
Maybe just need an external crank trigger? but where to get one? and would a standard LS1 external trigger (if there is one) work?

[bluegrass]

It'll probably start with the stock LS1 tune. Then tweak it from there. If you find tables in the E67 ecu that are exactly the same as the LS1 table, as far as x and y axis, you can cut and paste those over. If the timing tables are not formatted the same you can still get an idea of what a stock Northstar wants for timing and just change the LS1 tables to match the E67 Northstar tables.

If you don't have a wideband O2 sensor I'd get one.

I can't help but note the reference to the 07 STS, Been looking for info on an '07 SRX 4.6L. Two views. First, want to tune the 4.6L to get an extra 30 or so HP. Running volant CAI and aftermarket MAF. Not ehough gain there. Second option is need to know if the supercharger/intake, etc from an '05 XLR-V will bolt on to the 4.6L and if so, what changes need to be made. Your input to both please, and thank you from the Great White North...