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Thread: Having problems with tune with 80 pound siemens using Gregs Dvd.

  1. #61
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam88gta1 View Post
    Am I the only one that wonders why Greg will never reply to threads like this?
    Probably something like THIS. Busy only starts to describe my life lately. The program I'm working on for my day job is seriously in "crunch time" for fuel economy and emissions certification. That doesn't leave me with a lot of time to police the forums.

    More to the point here, the data provided in the DVD is the mathematical derivation of Ford and Continental's published injector characterizations. I only translated the existing data within the OEM constraints. The minimum pulsewidth is a great example here. Ford and Conti have pretty stringent standard for shot to shot variability, so the statistical variation at short pulses with these giant injectors drives an OEM requirement that one doesn't let it get down there too far. Obviously, this large minimum pulsewidth means a large minimum fuel mass which makes it difficult to get the desired mix at idle and light cruise on smaller engines. If you had an 8.0+ liter engine that swallowed huge amounts of air even at idle, a large minimum fuel mass wouldn't really be a big deal. On a 5.7l idling under 800rpm, it can be a different story altogether.

    So what does this really mean? In short, you're going to need to be a little creative if you want to effectively use a very large injector on a relatively small engine. Most likely, the first thing you're going to violate is Ford/Conti's definition of "consistent" for minimum shot size. Sure, you'll get more variation than the typical emissions calibrator wants. But in the racing arena, chances are that you'll get by with a little more variation that is accompanied by big power up top.

    Reducing rail pressure reduces the linear flow rate (IFR table), but also has an effect upon opening delay and nonlinearity (short pulse adjust). The trick is not to go too far with pressure changes. The data provided is based on a nominal 58psi (4 bar) and remember that GM defines the offset MUCH differently than Ford in units of time. Rather than just globally dropping the rail pressure, why not use a 1:1 regulator? It does everything we want; less pressure/flow at idle and more under boost. This goes a long way toward making the calibration process more simple and successful, regardless of the injector chosen. I do this on my personal twin turbo LS3 corvette with 60's.

  2. #62
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    Thanks for your response. You're saying use base @ 58psi... but then a 1:1 regulator on top. Which means you run 20psi and you're running 78psi at the rails. Is that sustainable?
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  3. #63
    Senior Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I run an odd 50# base with them on the cars I tune; 1:1 referenced.

    He's talking about 60's there though. Mightymouse made 852rwhp through 60's at 8X psi. His pumps were hating life I'm sure, but the injectors seemed to be fine at that pressure.
    Steve Williams
    TunedbyFrost.com


  4. #64
    I remember reading that the siemens 80# injectors were rated at 3 bar fuel pressure, and this was also not with gasoline, so with 4 bar fuel pressure and gasoline theyre rating was like 96.5# injectors...this is what i enetered into my 98 fbody and it seems to work fine, accept for some minor surging while driving under 1800rpm with light load, but i also have an 88mmturbo and a cam....but im assuming since i left all the other injector data stock, its probably contributing, however my car idles mint and good afr...

    Not tryin to say i did it the right way, just sayin that it works for me lol

  5. #65
    Tuner JnJSpdShop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    Thanks for your response. You're saying use base @ 58psi... but then a 1:1 regulator on top. Which means you run 20psi and you're running 78psi at the rails. Is that sustainable?
    Guess that depends on if you have the fuel pump to flow the volume at that pressure. If not you need more pump or less pressure. Most of these hassles can be avoided with a good injector.

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  6. #66
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    I know this is an old thread, but Alb did you ever get this figured out? I'm trying to run 80s myself, but am wondering if I should pull them out and send them back for 60's. Here's what I'm working on:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...S1900-1968-C10

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob
    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692

  7. #67
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    They'll work... with the correct tune info...

    What issues are you having?
    2011 Z07 Carbon Edition

  8. #68
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    They'll work... with the correct tune info...

    What issues are you having?
    Eagle I'm a newbie to all of this. Here's a link to my project (68 C10 6.2/TVS1900/6L80) and the modifications I have done:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...S1900-1968-C10

    I guess I need help with everything, lol. I'm just try to get a "safe" tune so that I can get my truck running and then be able to take it to an exhaust shop and then get it dyno tuned. Unfortunately, there are no tuners in my area that I trust to touch my truck. Any help with be greatly appreciated.
    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692

  9. #69
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    Don't take me as sounding negative, I'm more concerned with your investment in your project. So you have no tuning experience at all? I'd strongly advise that you find a company like Frost (if he's even still around ) and let them setup your base tune... unless you already know the shop that you're going to have tune your truck? If you know who you're going to, perhaps they can hook you up with a base tune given your mod list?
    2011 Z07 Carbon Edition

  10. #70
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    Don't take me as sounding negative, I'm more concerned with your investment in your project. So you have no tuning experience at all? I'd strongly advise that you find a company like Frost (if he's even still around ) and let them setup your base tune... unless you already know the shop that you're going to have tune your truck? If you know who you're going to, perhaps they can hook you up with a base tune given your mod list?
    I appreciate your concern Eagle. Believe me, I'm being super careful. I'm new to tuning, but have quite a bit of automotive experience. I'm doing a lot of reading and research. I just saw Frost on this thread and plan on talking to him if I can't work out something with the tune shop I plan on using. Either way, I'm sure I'm going to need those SD 80 tables. Thanks again for your help and suggestions.
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    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692

  11. #71
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    The truck is HOT btw.... its amazing. Nice work. Looks like it'll be quite the machine.
    2011 Z07 Carbon Edition

  12. #72
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    Min fuel milligrams. Already discussed here, so not a secret anymore.

    Yeah, had problems with them as well at the time Greg provided his injector data.

  13. #73
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    The truck is HOT btw.... its amazing. Nice work. Looks like it'll be quite the machine.
    Thanks Eagle, I've been playing around with it for over 4 years. I had it dialed in with a 383 stroker with a Vortec that dyno'd over 622 HP, but I've always been a LS guy. So when I found the 6.2/6L80, the next chapter began...LOL. Thanks for all of the help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pekka_Perkeles View Post
    Min fuel milligrams. Already discussed here, so not a secret anymore.

    Yeah, had problems with them as well at the time Greg provided his injector data.
    So you got them to work correctly?
    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692

  14. #74
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    I found this information about the injectors online and thought I would share:

    https://www.fordracingparts.com/down...d_Adaptors.pdf
    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by HartRod View Post
    So you got them to work correctly?
    Yes.

  16. #76
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pekka_Perkeles View Post
    Yes.
    Do you mind sharing the data you used? TIA.
    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692

  17. #77
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    I concur, sexy truck with power to back it up.

  18. #78
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    It's alive!!! John at FIC sent me the injector data on Friday and with the help of Phil at tampatuning, Sultanhassanmastuning and other's on this board, it will finally start and idle!

    http://instagram.com/p/ghIL3jknuC/


    Attached is a log I ran. Phil figured out that I had the MAF in backwards (makeshift intake plumbing %^&*+!!), so I'll run another one today with that corrected. Anyway, just thought I would share. I kinda jumped in the deep end, considering the setup I have and no previous tuning experience, but I appreciate all the help on here.
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    69 Suburban Bagged & Blown: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=200387
    68 Farm Truck build thread-LS3/6L80/TVS1900: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=358692