tuning wot with out wideband

[200gmc]

How are y'all tuning wot without a wideband, I know its not the best way but I dont have a wideband and I wanted to try it without.

[5_Liter_Eater]

Some use narrow band/stock O2's mV output. See table here for what AFR is supposed to equate to what voltage.

http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store...?idproduct=129

Let me suffix this with the statement that narrow bands are only accurate around stoich. Their design is only to tell whether the AFR is richer or leaner than 14.7. So trying to tune for 12.5:1 by trying to get your narrow band O2s to 1V is not going to work. I target 11.5:1 because of the supercharger and I see varying narrow band O2 mV anywhere from 900 to 1000.

[BBA]

The only way to do it is in FORCED CLOSED LOOP mode (using VCM control) and adjust for low fuel trims. This means, do not drive it hard for long as combustion temps will be a little high, I recommend at least using the VCM controls to reduce timing by 4-6º during WOT runs.

If you get trims perfect this way, then the PE value will accurately reflect lambda and you can adjust for the best PE values by doing test runs while logging calculated torque, do at least 4 runs, using different PE values for each run (use 1.175 across all RPMs, then do 1.185 across all RPM's, then do 1.195 across all RPM,s then do 1.20 across all RPM's) and then compare the run logs against each other find the best PE curve for the highest measured torque. You may want to do more values (higher or lower PE depending on what works for your combination)

[BBA]

This will help:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/attach...8&d=1196388220

[200gmc]

This will help:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/attach...8&d=1196388220

Thanks guys,I had to ask this question cause everywhere I look it says to use wideband and I agree, but all this tuner shops are tuning without wideband.

[madvette08]

Use a wideband, the narrow bands know that its richer then 14 afr but not how much.

[200gmc]

Use a wideband, the narrow bands know that its richer then 14 afr but not how much.

i seen some wide band gauges, well one of the guys posted a link and i was looking that those wide band gauges work with stock o2s, how accurate are those, what will y'all recommend i may just get a wide band instead of my headers since this has been a headache without one.

[BBA]

Widebands are only accurate once, when they are new and only after being calibrated. Beyond that, tune for performance, not for a specific AFR. (unless you just want to go slower).

[69lt1bird]

Widebands are only accurate once, when they are new and only after being calibrated. Beyond that, tune for performance, not for a specific AFR. (unless you just want to go slower).

[RWTD]

My god, what kind of shadetree tuning do we have going on in here?

[HNK]

Widebands are only accurate once, when they are new and only after being calibrated. Beyond that, tune for performance, not for a specific AFR. (unless you just want to go slower).

Hope you elaborate, unlike others i have come across.

I have found the WBs not to respond as quick as the WB on my dyno operator, at lower end that is, but once at WOT, then they are spot on.

[murphinator]

tuning for power and not afr makes me think of the old saying " they always go best just before they blow"

just the first thing that popped in my head , if you try hard enough I am sure you could find an accurate way without a wideband but they arent that expensive why try to re invent the wheel ?

round works pretty well

a local forum guy currently has an afx in the box with the bosch sensor for $150 its not the upgraded ntk but it's $150 and you can always find an aem or something on craigs list for $100 or so used

[BBA]

My god, what kind of shadetree tuning do we have going on in here?

You don't follow my post? Because I am tired of hearing people say tuning for xx.xx AFR gives best power...they have no clue when talking about lambda. Always tune for lambda, do runs at different PE multipliers for the best power. Usually ends up being a tad richer than most people would think anyway. The fact is max power is always richer, not leaner, so keeping the tune 'safe' is always going to be the result.

Besides, it is a proven fact that at stoich, a narrowband is more accurate than most any wideband with a lot of hours on each. If the wideband is off at stoich, you really think it will be accurate at lower lambda?

[BBA]

Hope you elaborate, unlike others i have come across.

I have found the WBs not to respond as quick as the WB on my dyno operator, at lower end that is, but once at WOT, then they are spot on.

I can trust closed loop zero trims without PE to get stoich all around, then trust PE multiplier for final lambda.

Take for example, a wideband measuring stoich...it will read 14.7 or so, even though actual AFR running E10 fuel will be 14.1. Now, if you correct the reading for fuel composition thats great, but why not use lambda instead of AFR in the first place? It completely makes the correction unnecessary. Besides that, tuning VE or MAF for WOT while using a correction in the wideband to offset for PE seems absurdly stupid to me when it can be avoided in the first place.

Or does no one follow me here?

[BBA]

tuning for power and not afr makes me think of the old saying " they always go best just before they blow"

just the first thing that popped in my head , if you try hard enough I am sure you could find an accurate way without a wideband but they arent that expensive why try to re invent the wheel ?

round works pretty well

a local forum guy currently has an afx in the box with the bosch sensor for $150 its not the upgraded ntk but it's $150 and you can always find an aem or something on craigs list for $100 or so used

Because I am not going to require everyone put a wideband on their car when we drive and tune... They want poor results, let them go to a dyno shop that uses a wideband to rape their PE table. That doesn't help anything but WOT above 3500 RPM, since for some reason dyno people are oblivious to where 99% of driving is really done, below 3000 RPM at part throttle.

[BBA]

Let me suffix this with the statement that narrow bands are only accurate around stoich. Their design is only to tell whether the AFR is richer or leaner than 14.7. So trying to tune for 12.5:1 by trying to get your narrow band O2s to 1V is not going to work. I target 11.5:1 because of the supercharger and I see varying narrow band O2 mV anywhere from 900 to 1000.

I agree, and you should never tune with narrowband for anything BUT stoich (lambda=1).

[69lt1bird]

For low speed driveability your way should work. The only thing I see that will get people in trouble is you are having them run WOT with the PE table turned off.

If their Open Loop F/A vs Coolant Temp vs MAP is all 1.00 where you are tuning at, they are running at 14.68 @ WOT. Shouldn't you instruct them to put some reasonable values in at least the high MAP regions?

Wouldn't is be better to filter out the PE values in the histograms rather than turn off the PE table? That way you can still tune what you want without seeing the PE values if you hit that region.

An example, the 2006 Silverado 6.0L I just looked at is 1.0 for every cell above 176*F.

Just a thought.

[BBA]

For low speed driveability your way should work. The only thing I see that will get people in trouble is you are having them run WOT with the PE table turned off.

If their Open Loop F/A vs Coolant Temp vs MAP is all 1.00 where you are tuning at, they are running at 14.68 @ WOT. Shouldn't you instruct them to put some reasonable values in at least the high MAP regions?

Wouldn't is be better to filter out the PE values in the histograms rather than turn off the PE table? That way you can still tune what you want without seeing the PE values if you hit that region.

An example, the 2006 Silverado 6.0L I just looked at is 1.0 for every cell above 176*F.

Just a thought.

You can't filter out PE tables and log for fuel trims under PE, at least not on mine because all trims go to zero under PE. If you retard timing as I do during non PE WOT, you have no problems to worry about. You only tune for power with PE, you tune for zero trims without PE this way.

[200gmc]

The only way to do it is in FORCED CLOSED LOOP mode (using VCM control) and adjust for low fuel trims. This means, do not drive it hard for long as combustion temps will be a little high, I recommend at least using the VCM controls to reduce timing by 4-6º during WOT runs.

If you get trims perfect this way, then the PE value will accurately reflect lambda and you can adjust for the best PE values by doing test runs while logging calculated torque, do at least 4 runs, using different PE values for each run (use 1.175 across all RPMs, then do 1.185 across all RPM's, then do 1.195 across all RPM,s then do 1.20 across all RPM's) and then compare the run logs against each other find the best PE curve for the highest measured torque. You may want to do more values (higher or lower PE depending on what works for your combination)

do you have a pid setup for calculating torque. thanks

[DSteck]

You can't filter out PE tables and log for fuel trims under PE, at least not on mine because all trims go to zero under PE. If you retard timing as I do during non PE WOT, you have no problems to worry about. You only tune for power with PE, you tune for zero trims without PE this way.

Yes you can. Filter for a commanded AFR that is above your commanded AFR during PE. I use it all the time. You can do it in terms of EQ ratio as well if you want to stick to lambda. I typically run 0.85 lambda during WOT, so set up a filter that only includes trims when commanded EQ ratio is greater than 0.9 or something.