How to tune A/F Ratio on Alloytech Engines?

[driftnpow]

hehe, 2nd that nev im a skinny bugga myself. yeah theyre bit of work i do admit gettin head round these engines at first.

found playing with the inj multiplier across the time axis can alter the airload just a smidge, fraction of a percentage im talking, gettin airload/air rammin into the combustion chamber what gives ya punch! altering the cams achive alot at WOT along with Max VE
yeah lotta detail behind its relationship but yeah once ya got the trims sorted and air flooding in then have some fun with the cams, keep in mind see trim deviation but its not unbarable always go back and fix that as ya go along when ya want. yeah work on ya engine airflow what gives ya engine speeds, you get good reference from the maf metre on this..

As for throttle touchy touchy... Max VE governs the severity of WOT.. if shes real touchy down low just pick the rev range to dampen and drop the percentage... nice smooth curve gives ya better torque delivery, not so irratic and more comfortable to drive.

had dose of nice cooler air tonight my ute was in the mood of "lets go"
gotta love it when winter is comming on theres ya octane boost right there in the air hehe

[driftnpow]

add a bit more about airload vs airflow... get the air moving thru the engine faster the faster the engine gets from A-B... crammin the air in from the start gets the bugger pullin off the line... combine the 2 from start to finish... hang on!! got makings of a rocket haha
if ya mad and have the coin... go to a v8 or bolt a snail to the engine... these engines can go like a rocket

[BigDaddyCool]

tru, i thought air kinda slowed the power..... that would explain some things on a few diff tune techniques ive tried.

man i tell ya, i'm getting pretty fed up atm aey. I've been trying to tune my standard tune flater ...... keeps knocking, i dont wanna keep bloody pullin spark aey.

i've tried upping the injectors, lowering the spark..... mostly left airload alone as i dunno which way to go increase or decrease.

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My cars pretty custom so it's messed up the stong tune alot i recon cause of my whole setup.

arg. Check out my other VZ running VE thread, I could use some serious help on that. The VE tune definately has some WOT powerz..... and general response. But I cant smooth that out.

I'm a bit lacking in the skill department here I think.....

[BigDaddyCool]

Got a question guys...... this is for future reference. I've found dropping spark and adjusting injectors just don't fix knocking so much.

So if I have enough fuel and things seem ok, what do I adjust? Do I increase the airload in that area or reduce it? ........ or do I adjust the VE down maybe?

I'm sure my problem relates to airload but i dont know which way to go, up or down and how far. So if my car knocks around 6'degree's...... what should I change? to see if it smooths out

[Nev1]

what revs/%air load is it knocking at?

[BigDaddyCool]

Generally speaking my biggest area of knock is around 25-45% load between 1200-2400rpm.

Thats my general area. The rest i can most of the time smooth out via fuel or spark reduction but just that area i've noticed is a problem.

[BigDaddyCool]

question, whats the diff between the air load and calculated air load?

I seriously need some better knock technique removal .. i find my calculated airloads alot higher then the actual airload?

[vz_calais_190]

hello new user here and 1st post
iv got a 2005 vz calais 190kw (full vvt) 5l40e (5 speed auto)
here is a copy of holdens latest tune to play around with for the 190kw.
they reflashed my whole car when i had the rear 02's replaced. even the auto seems to shift quicker now, rpm dont serge with med throttle like it used to.

iv been playing around with the scanner and got a air load and worked out how to get the missing o2 ect going in the gauges. i hope this will help a few of you people out..
but im buggered if i can work out how to get the histograms working.

so far with my tuning iv swapped the warm cams into the cold and knock and the car seems smoother and sometimes has more go.
but the alloytec is really confusing to try and work out what works what in the different tables. the cams seem easy but i cant really play with them until i work out the rest of the settings but there seems to be a lot of things missing in regards to the motor side of things and i cant wait to get some tables for the auto

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeh the alloytech does seem difficult. I will say this after my year and a half of tuning with it. Leave it all stock. Set your torque to 100, remove the torque limiters (cylinder and gearbox) ..... and just sort out spark/fueling. If you run 98, you'll find the hot tables cause knocking alot.

It does appear to use all 4 tables for spark, you cant just wack your cold tables for spark into the hot, you'll just degrade performance and fuel economy.

If you add more 'optimal torque' in area's, you need more airload and fuel to go with it otherwise it just brings on knock.

As for the VE Table, I noticed holden have mostly changed that along with cams in your tune..... I think VE table is just like the way the car adjusts everything overall from what i've seen so far. It says "max torque at wot etc" but it doesn't, it adjusts everything.

Thats my two cents.

Oh and things like COT (catalyst overtemp) ...... generally leave alone, alot of people pull fueling to save fuel....... but it effects the whole car within it's temp ranges again.

ATF ........ in the spark area, again leave it as is........ alot of people pull the negatives from there.... but trust me, small changes make for bigger performance improvement then larger ones.

These cars are picky....... Cams are another ball game, they will effect the driveabilty if you change it, which you'll notice more in the wet if you tighten them up.

PS. I've completely reorganised my IAT Temp axes for the car, as I live in QLD and the axes they have didn't fit my climate. Same went with the ECT warm up spark advance. I left my cold tables as there were just modified them slightly during warm up. Hot cams in cold cams table I think will wear the car faster. After all why else would they have them? It's designed to warm the car up quicker, it does that for a reason.

[BigDaddyCool]

Sorry Guys...... going to re-add to this thread. I've got my head around alot of things lately, i've noticed i've sounded like a noob ALOT.
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I have a questiona bout the "airload", so the 'Desired Air Load' which calculates from Engine Speed & %... the percentage, whats that based on.

My ultimate question surrounds.... if say at 2000rpm I have a 30% load, maf showing like 21g/sec.... and the 'Desired Air Load' table area for that requests like 33.00.....

Should I be adjusting that up or down? How does it effect torque etc..... I have some knocking which I beleive I can rid myself of by editing the desired airload table.

[BigDaddyCool]

Chris:

Have a read, things for alloytech ....... I know it sounds repetitive but some things may be simple for you guys to adjust as a whole.

VCM Editor:

1. Fans mentioned it heaps.
2. Some sort of method of working out diff ratio calcuations, revs per mile etc. Some tunes seem to have a built in calcutor in this area.
3. Acceleration Enrichment (alloytechs must have this, if you monitor Fuel System Status (SAE) you see it pop up when touching the pedal
4. Ability to add more columns to axes...... for ecu temps etc. To expand it to be able to control spark advance more accross more temperature ranges.
5. Be able to change Torque > Lamba Efficiency in intervals of .10 instead of .50 (to give greater control) could add a tad more torque without so much fuel impact etc.
6. Aircon Torque Adjustments - No idea if alloytechs have this, I know V8's seem to .. ....

VCM Scanner:

1. Catalyst Temperature (to help with fueling, when the car is in COT etc..... as at current have no way of knowing)
2. Gearbox Temerature (to be able to adjust temperatures appropriately and know what range it's in temp wise for shifts etc)
3. Engine (torque output) or gearbox interpreted torque output (to be able to workout current torque for a shift etc)
4. Case Relearn for Alloytech (to clear fuel trims without having to reset the ecu and relearn them etc)
5. Be able to not only check for ECU Stored Faults but faults in the BCM (tech 2 picks up what VCM Suite cant).
6. Able to add more things to the 'Table Display' in VCM Scanner.... which is currently limited to 40 (but I like to leave a space between certain area's so it makes it easier to read)

These by my definition are the final things needing to be added to be able to 'fine tune' one of these cars. Without things like engine torque, gearbox temp, when it's in COT espeically along with the fans, axes changes and finer control of Lambda adjustments etc........

We're half flying blind..... There's 'basic tuning' which is what we currently can do and then there's 'TUNING'..... being able to finely adjust everything, which the V8's seem to have the luxury of. I'm sure you can see my point here.

eg. How are we able to be confident in adjusting shift points when we dunno the tranny temp, the engine torque output or the tranny interpreted torque output? ...... How are we supposed to know when the car is in COT of if it's effecting WOT etc...

If you like I can forward this to support as well as recommendations.
Cheers
Jamie

[Chris@HPTuners]

Chris:

Have a read, things for alloytech ....... I know it sounds repetitive but some things may be simple for you guys to adjust as a whole.

VCM Editor:

1. Fans mentioned it heaps.

Sometimes ECM doesn't control fans, but i know some cases it does and the parameters are missing. Working on it.

2. Some sort of method of working out diff ratio calcuations, revs per mile etc. Some tunes seem to have a built in calcutor in this area.

The parameters available so far don't allow it.

3. Acceleration Enrichment (alloytechs must have this, if you monitor Fuel System Status (SAE) you see it pop up when touching the pedal

i don't know, power enrichment is there.

4. Ability to add more columns to axes...... for ecu temps etc. To expand it to be able to control spark advance more accross more temperature ranges.
5. Be able to change Torque > Lamba Efficiency in intervals of .10 instead of .50 (to give greater control) could add a tad more torque without so much fuel impact etc.

you can edit most axes by clicking on the underlined axis label

6. Aircon Torque Adjustments - No idea if alloytechs have this, I know V8's seem to .. ....

don't know, the bosch ECM is totally different to the Delphi ones.

VCM Scanner:

1. Catalyst Temperature (to help with fueling, when the car is in COT etc..... as at current have no way of knowing)
2. Gearbox Temerature (to be able to adjust temperatures appropriately and know what range it's in temp wise for shifts etc)
3. Engine (torque output) or gearbox interpreted torque output (to be able to workout current torque for a shift etc)

it depends very much what is available for scanning, again its not as comprehensive as other GM ECM's.

4. Case Relearn for Alloytech (to clear fuel trims without having to reset the ecu and relearn them etc)

not sure what you mean here, CASE leanr and fuel trim reset are different things. So far i haven't found any ability to do these, although hopefully it is there.

5. Be able to not only check for ECU Stored Faults but faults in the BCM (tech 2 picks up what VCM Suite cant).

I thought the latest s/w did show DTC's from other modules, maybe keith took it out again cos it was confusing for people.

6. Able to add more things to the 'Table Display' in VCM Scanner.... which is currently limited to 40 (but I like to leave a space between certain area's so it makes it easier to read)

this is not my area but i'll pass it on

These by my definition are the final things needing to be added to be able to 'fine tune' one of these cars. Without things like engine torque, gearbox temp, when it's in COT espeically along with the fans, axes changes and finer control of Lambda adjustments etc........

We're half flying blind..... There's 'basic tuning' which is what we currently can do and then there's 'TUNING'..... being able to finely adjust everything, which the V8's seem to have the luxury of. I'm sure you can see my point here.

eg. How are we able to be confident in adjusting shift points when we dunno the tranny temp, the engine torque output or the tranny interpreted torque output? ...... How are we supposed to know when the car is in COT of if it's effecting WOT etc...

If you like I can forward this to support as well as recommendations.
Cheers
Jamie

When we offered support for these Bosch ECM's we knew these things:
1. the software uses completely different logic to what we and most tuners are used to, even GM calibration engineers will draw straws to avoid working with these ECM's!!!
2. a lot of the functions and features people are used to for GM's mainstream V8 platforms do not exist in others. The Ecotec 3800 V6 is another good example, the software for those PCM's was written by a completely seperate dept of GM and works very, very differently.
3. there is a small but dedicated demand for tuning these engines and when we surveyed people about offerring tuning support for them, more often than not the response was "anything is better than nothing". So after much deliberation we decided that what we could offer was enough to enable people to tune these things. We are improving our understanding of the details over time, but it's far from easy.

Chris...

[BigDaddyCool]

Cheers Chris... Nice that you took the time to help me out here. Yeh I know some things you guys can't do regardless as it's not there but there's a few things I'm 100% certain must be there to be able to utilise.

1. Ability to monitor transmission temperature and engine torque level in nm, as the gearbox arranges shifts around the torque level and current temp. So there must be a way to get VCM Scanner to be able to monitor the torque output / tranny temp so we can arrange the gear shift pressures properly.

3. Axies, yeh I know you can edit most in the various area's, but my main point on this was two things. Being able to add more columns to whats available and being able to adjust the interval of adjustment.

eg. Lambda, on my tune adjusts up or down in 0.50 intervals, it'd be great if it'd to 0.10 or even 0.01 at a time. I'm thinking this is something that can be changed on a global scale. It'd be great to adjust this because it'll give it'll give greater control over fine tuning fueling/torque.

Going from say like 0.95 lambda=100.00 to like .90 lambda=100.50 is a bit harsh for what i'm trying to do....... if I could change this to like .90 lamba-to-100.20 ....... it just greats a smoother change.

I'm sure you follow me on that one.

*****

I do get these Alloytech ECM's are a real ......... because tuning them seems to follow suit. I'm just at a point now after tuning so long I see the minor little things that can help make all the difference.

Mostly really all I'm after is mostly more VCM Scanner logging and more axes control. If I could go directly into the tune file outside vcm suite and just forcibly change the lambda values I would but I got no idea.

PS. I'm sure the alloytech engine tuning will begin to pickup over the next few years if we start seeing some stock turbo's roll out.

[Chris@HPTuners]

Cheers Chris... Nice that you took the time to help me out here. Yeh I know some things you guys can't do regardless as it's not there but there's a few things I'm 100% certain must be there to be able to utilise.

1. Ability to monitor transmission temperature and engine torque level in nm, as the gearbox arranges shifts around the torque level and current temp. So there must be a way to get VCM Scanner to be able to monitor the torque output / tranny temp so we can arrange the gear shift pressures properly.

3. Axies, yeh I know you can edit most in the various area's, but my main point on this was two things. Being able to add more columns to whats available and being able to adjust the interval of adjustment.

eg. Lambda, on my tune adjusts up or down in 0.50 intervals, it'd be great if it'd to 0.10 or even 0.01 at a time. I'm thinking this is something that can be changed on a global scale. It'd be great to adjust this because it'll give it'll give greater control over fine tuning fueling/torque.

Going from say like 0.95 lambda=100.00 to like .90 lambda=100.50 is a bit harsh for what i'm trying to do....... if I could change this to like .90 lamba-to-100.20 ....... it just greats a smoother change.

I'm sure you follow me on that one.

*****

I do get these Alloytech ECM's are a real ......... because tuning them seems to follow suit. I'm just at a point now after tuning so long I see the minor little things that can help make all the difference.

Mostly really all I'm after is mostly more VCM Scanner logging and more axes control. If I could go directly into the tune file outside vcm suite and just forcibly change the lambda values I would but I got no idea.

PS. I'm sure the alloytech engine tuning will begin to pickup over the next few years if we start seeing some stock turbo's roll out.

You can increase the number of decimals in the editor to get finer adjustment, but the resolution ultimately depends on the ECM code, if you make a change of 0.01 and the editor rounds it to 0.5 then that is due to the ECM resolution. Can't change that sorry. I'm not sure what you are trying to tune using that lambda efficiency table, it is just a modifier of the calculated engine torque based on lambda, i doubt the actual torque calculation is even accurate to 5% let alone 0.5%.

If your car has a 4spd auto then i'm surprised you cannot log trans temp, it is generally available for all T42 TCM's. Send your file into support and we'll take a look at it.

Chris...

[BigDaddyCool]

I'll try sending it to support, aint getting any emails back lately.......

But no it wont log transmission temperature.... it is a 4 speed.

[Chris@HPTuners]

I'll try sending it to support, aint getting any emails back lately.......

But no it wont log transmission temperature.... it is a 4 speed.

yeah Bill has been on vacation this week, critical emails have been forwarded to us here in engineering but others will be answered when he gets back.

[kangsta]

Requests

Scanner
* PID for desired torque

Editor
* Pedal to Desired torque table
* Max airload limiter/check parameters

[vz_calais_190]

well at least you guy's with the 4 speed auto's are lucky enough to adjust your shift settings, others like myself with the 5l40e 5 speed auto wonder how long the box will hold up with the stock slow and high slip setting's even in power mode