Unknown elements of SD's 60# injectors, what are the effects

[angrygoat]

I cant even count how many time I have read that we have so much unkown info about the 60s, or many other injectors for that matter, such as min pulse width, voltage offsets, and pulse adders and how this lack of info really affects your tune. It got me to asking myself, what are the results of this lack of proper info in the tune. What do I look at and say that isnt right because of the injector info not being 100%? From what I can tell, we see the final results, AFR. Do I look at poor idle or poor/sluggish transition from one load cell to another? Just want to answer this for myself

[JoeCiv]

cant answer your question, but im with ya. i know some tuners dont change anything but the IFR when changing injectors, and just adjust ve/maf to compensate. At first I thought whats the difference? afr is afr right? but after reading on here for the last few months, i really want to have the right data. too bad it is such an unknown.

[angrygoat]

it may not be an unknown for long, or at least as much of an unknown, but Im awaiting confirmation. But I would still like to be able to look at a log of a vehicles and be able to say this isnt right because of the short pulse adder or min pulsewidth

[RWTD]

It's not unknown data anymore. Greg Banish (efilicalibrator) has data for every Ford FRPP (aka "SVO") injector, as well as the Siemens Deka 60 and 80, and you too can have this information by purchasing his training DVD that's being sold through Summit right now.

Now, as for what issues there will be with not having all the correct injector data, basically, in a nutshell, you'll be lying to your VE and/or MAF, causing the pcm to calculate data incorrectly, and on top of this proper operation of the injector is extremely crucial to having this proper data. Control for idle, transients, WOT, etc.

[angrygoat]

so its not something you can "see" in a log, it just knowing that the VE and MAF data is inaccurate.

[RWTD]

No, you definitely won't see it in a log, per se. Those 2 parameters are used in TONS of calculations throughout the pcm, so if you skew them, then obviously everything will be skewed with them.

[JoeCiv]

do you know if greg is going to have data for the siemens 60's at 3 bar pressure, which is really what they are rated at?

I just got his first book in the mail today, great read so far. dvd will def be in my shopping cart when its available to ship..

[LowePerf]

Rated at 3 bar, but Greg's data is actual values you would use for your actual fuel pressure. Greg has done all the homework on this for flow rates,offsets, short pulse adders,minimum pulsewidth, ect.... worth the price of the DVD alone!
-John

[JoeCiv]

Rated at 3 bar, but Greg's data is actual values you would use for your actual fuel pressure. Greg has done all the homework on this for flow rates,offsets, short pulse adders,minimum pulsewidth, ect.... worth the price of the DVD alone!
-John

right, but i was looking to run them at the rated pressure (i changed to a boost/vac referenced return fuel system)

[RWTD]

right, but i was looking to run them at the rated pressure (i changed to a boost/vac referenced return fuel system)

I'm not 100% sure, but it's possible that Greg's Excel based injector worksheets will allow you to specify a specific pressure. I could be wrong, tho. However, I'm sure Greg will work with you on getting you the exact data you need, provided you purchase his training DVD.

[eficalibrator]

My data sheets included with the DVD will be only at 58psi reference pressure, although many of the OE tables are structured to deliver corrected offsets at different pressures as well as voltages.

I'd really recommend just using them at 58psi (the stock GM pressure) in most late model GM applications so that the data in my sheets matches the hardware. If you want to derive the data at 43.5psi (3bar), you can probably just start with what's on the Siemens/Continental blueprints that are already circling the net or the Ford raw data. (Be warned that Ford and GM characterize the "offset" and non-linear regions very differently.)

[[email protected]]

My data sheets included with the DVD will be only at 58psi reference pressure, although many of the OE tables are structured to deliver corrected offsets at different pressures as well as voltages.

I'd really recommend just using them at 58psi (the stock GM pressure) in most late model GM applications so that the data in my sheets matches the hardware. If you want to derive the data at 43.5psi (3bar), you can probably just start with what's on the Siemens/Continental blueprints that are already circling the net or the Ford raw data. (Be warned that Ford and GM characterize the "offset" and non-linear regions very differently.)

Greg..... when is the DVD going to be available ?

I have already had two cars on the dyno tuning on HPT and should have had the DVD's before hand!

BTW: Your MAF tuning/rescaling instructions in class really paid off for me last night! Thanks a bunch!

[talldude68]

Yeah. Just looked. Now the est shipment date is 8/14. Kicked back another week.

[JoeCiv]

If you want to derive the data at 43.5psi (3bar), you can probably just start with what's on the Siemens/Continental blueprints that are already circling the net

have a link?

[eficalibrator]

Greg..... when is the DVD going to be available ?

Yeah. Just looked. Now the est shipment date is 8/14. Kicked back another week.

Summit should have them in stock now. It's just a matter of them updating their system and filling orders.

[MrDrezzUp]

It amazes me that so many injector sets are sold and yet so few people actually have/use the correct values.

I am in need of larger injectors, and am waiting for Greg's DVD to arrive before I purchase any. Whatever large injector's Greg's DVD has the values for, those will be the injectors I will be purchasing. Greg should be getting a cut for every set of injectors sold that are used with the correct settings!

[eficalibrator]

It amazes me that so many injector sets are sold and yet so few people actually have/use the correct values.

Tell me about it... I was working with a client's supplier to get the data on a lot of their other injectors and the manufacturer didn't even understand what we were asking for when we talked about nonlinear flow region data. This is one area where the aftermarket is seriously lagging behind the OEMs on knowledge and capability.

Greg should be getting a cut for every set of injectors sold that are used with the correct settings!

As nice as that would be for me, I'm not holding my breath.

[angrygoat]

Well I had some interesting info from Continnental about their 60;s that I thought would answer all of these question. I sent it to Marcin but he said it still left a lot of info blank. Guess it didnt pan out to be the holy grail like I thought it would. Which is a shame because it had a list of voltage offsets and some other stuff that looked arabic to me

[DSteck]

I wonder if the OEMs would be willing to develop the data for aftermarket sets. They're struggling for money, right?

[RWTD]

I wonder if the OEMs would be willing to develop the data for aftermarket sets. They're struggling for money, right?

You know, before Ford Racing started "getting with the program" and releasing this data for the injectors they sell, there was a Ford engineer/calibrator (Dev) that would actually flow and spec whatever injector gave to him. Of course, the individual is Jerry W's (former Ford engineer/calibrator, and founder and former owner of SCT) best friend, so we have Jerry, and Dev, to thank for that.

Too bad we didn't have an "inside" helper like that with GM.