2010 Camaro fuel system limits?

[FLDave]

This is mainly directed at Chris & Kieth as I dont expect anyone else might have info regarding this yet:

OK ... so it seems that the PCM monitors and controls the fuel pump closer than we expected ... they seem to be "integrated" for lack of a better term. If you try screwing with it, the PCM shuts the car down. Further ... it looks as though 500RWHP is about the limit on the stock fuel system. I here LPE is working on something but hasnt had any luck yet. I'm about to drop the twin turbo 427 into my 2010 Camaro but now I'm concerned about feeding it AND keeping it running.

Has anyone looked into this yet? and Are we going to have access to the peramiters to adjust this? Will there be someway to put in a stand alone, return style fuel system and keep the PCM happy?

Thanks in advance for any info &/or insight
Dave

[RWTD]

Well, you are able to raise rail pressure just like you can with the ZR1 and the 6.2 trucks, so making the factory injector "larger" is easy to do. i.e. you can make your stock injectors flow approx. 56 psi by bumping rail pressure to 87 psi for the "High Flow" (what the ZR1s max pressure is from the factory). Since you use more pump when you do this, what you need to determine is how much pump there is, and if the ZR1 pump will fit, and will it work, as GM has 2 different FPCM (fuel pump control modules), one they use in the trucks, and the one in the ZR1. See here:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...375#post170375
(Post #9)

[FLDave]

Thanks for the info. I'm gonna have to get myself up to speed on that for sure. I'm looking for 700-800RWHP so I'm gonna need to change injectors for certian. I think thats where I'm gonna run into trouble.

Which brings me to another question: has anyone used those new Siemens 80lb/hr high impedance injectors yet?
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1587

[RWTD]

The 80s are a great injector, work perfectly on the Fords, and Greg Banish (eficalibrator) will be publishing all the proper GM data for them in the future.

FYI, the shorty LS3 length 60s are good to 700 rwhp Actual on a Ford, and on a GM they would be good to approx. 850 rwhp Actual (due to the pressure differences). Greg will be publishing the data for these, too.

Do you plan to build the factory engine to withstand that type of power you're seeking?

[FLDave]

The 80s are a great injector, work perfectly on the Fords, and Greg Banish (eficalibrator) will be publishing all the proper GM data for them in the future.

FYI, the shorty LS3 length 60s are good to 700 rwhp Actual on a Ford, and on a GM they would be good to approx. 850 rwhp Actual (due to the pressure differences). Greg will be publishing the data for these, too.

Do you plan to build the factory engine to withstand that type of power you're seeking?

No, The stock LS3 is out of the car and sold already. I have a 427 built with a Warhawk block, Callies internals, the latest LS7 head from Cary (formerly of ETP) and a set of twins will be topping it off. I built it with a target of 1200 flywheel on good gas so I hope to be capable of 800 Rear Wheel on pump gas w/ less boost. We'll see ....

I've heard of people making impressive rear wheel HP w/ those 60s using turbos vs SCs (no parasitic loss) but I didnt want to find the edge so I thought those 80s might be the hot ticket. Now I just hope I can get past the PCM limits

[INTMD8]

I built it with a target of 1200 flywheel on good gas so I hope to be capable of 800 Rear Wheel on pump gas w/ less boost.

Should make that easily. I 2nd the use of the 80lb injectors.

[FLDave]

Where will I be able to find those "published values" and when do you think we can expect to see them?

Thanks in advance!

[RWTD]

Greg Banish, aka eficalibrator here on the forums, will be offering them via a cd, most likely through Summit Racing, and it should be ready to purchase within a week or two.

See Greg's updated post within his 1st thread here:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22787

Then scroll down to post #38.

[DSteck]

Has anybody ever gone further with this? There's a local 2010 Camaro that's going to get a Procharger and some SD 60s, and I'm concerned with the pump not keeping up on 8psi boost.

[TYRFRYR]

I have G8 with Heads/Cam and a 1900. I'm running around 8.5 psi. Even with the 60's you will run out of pump. I worked with some people I know (Engineer and CNC Designer from CCW) to make a twin pump setup the goes in the stock bucket location.

I'm currently using two GSS-342 pumps and an aeromotive external regulator.

As far as I'm aware of this is the only twin pump intake setup for the G8. Being that the Camaro and the G8 have similar tanks, the design might accomodate the Camaro too.

[DSteck]

I have G8 with Heads/Cam and a 1900. I'm running around 8.5 psi. Even with the 60's you will run out of pump. I worked with some people I know (Engineer and CNC Designer from CCW) to make a twin pump setup the goes in the stock bucket location.

I'm currently using two GSS-342 pumps and an aeromotive external regulator.

As far as I'm aware of this is the only twin pump intake setup for the G8. Being that the Camaro and the G8 have similar tanks, the design might accomodate the Camaro too.

Does the G8 use the FPCM though? How was it set up to work?

[TYRFRYR]

The G8 doesn't have a FPCM.

The twin pump setup replaces the stock hat. It's a billet piece that has brackets to hold two GSS-342 pumps. The pumps feed a manifold that is machined into the hat. The manifold provides a single external discharge port and an internal port to supply the two venturi pumps that feed the bucket. The stock bucket, venturi pumps and level sending unit are retained and mount to the new hat in a similar manner to the stock hat. The hat has a provision for a fuel return port.

Here's a picture minus the pumps and the bucket.

[DSteck]

I'm familiar with twin pump setups, I just don't know how the FPCM on the Camaro would impact using a twin pump assembly.

[LSxpwrdZ]

It'd be nice to just disable the FPCM and run a convensional system so you know you will have the fuel you need.

[tommytuner]

for what it's worth, the camaro we did made 530 rwhp (on a mustang dyno) thru the a6, and was running 60's with about 9psi. we ran out of pump at just over 5000 rpm's and 480-ish rwhp. pump would not maintain anything over 46 psi at that point, and idc would hit 100%. our solution was to put a gss 342 intank, plumbed in parallel with the stock pump. we wired it thru it's own relay, triggered by a hobbs switch and were able to maintain 55 psi all the way. car works totally normally at less than 3 psi boost, then aside from a pressure spike into the 60's when it comes on, flawlessly to the redline. only has a few hundred miles on it thus far tho, so i can't give any more feedback at the moment. we've had a few feet of snow on the ground for over a month now.......

another option we contemplated was to run returnless to a small cell underhood, with a pair of gs342's in it, running return-type between the cell and fuel rail, but returnless to the tank. theoretically the system would have no idea it's not stock, but my concern was obviously a gallon or so of gas sittin' under hood, hot days, heat soak, that sorta stuff........

for the record, we initially tried the boostapump option, wired several different ways. it is NOT a solution.

[DSteck]

Thank you for the info, tommytuner! Time to get creative, perhaps.

I wonder what would happen if the fuel system was converted to a return style, and an extra pump was set up in parallel on a hobbs switch for boost. Correcting the injector flow would be easy, and a vacuum referenced FPR might help prevent a spike from the extra pump... but would the vehicle freak out when it sees rail pressure drop during vacuum and rise during boost?

Edit: Would it also maybe be possible to set up a hobbs switch to trigger a relay to feed full battery voltage (further modified by a BAP if need be) to the pump? Set this up after the FPCM? In effect, the FPCM would still be wired up to the pump, but as soon as boost hits, allow more voltage to the pump while leaving the FPCM trying to drive it.

[tommytuner]

we tried a handful of different things, the system is definitely odd. we did some things that i really thot should have pissed it off quite a bit, and it didn't seem to have any problems at all, and then things i was sure would not be noticed made it veeery angry...... i'd be curious to hear any results on sucha setup. evap line could possibly be used as a temporary return for testing..... hmmm.....

would certainly make life easier if we could just trash the system and start over, but then technology always has its upsides too. sometimes just takes a minit to see 'em......

for what it's worth, i have quite a bit of data collected on the stock system-pump volume, pressure, and pump current draw/speed at different voltages, both with and without boostapump.

i've got a customer wanting a maggie-with E85, so we will be doing more testing sometime in march on that one......

[DSteck]

I am extremely curious how it would respond to a return-style conversion. Seems like that would be the way to go... retain injector stability at idle and cruise, and still have plenty of injector for WOT operation. Perhaps a second pump could just be wired in parallel to run constantly (maybe another OEM pump) and feed in close to the rail, right before a regulator.

[SEGA]

I am extremely curious how it would respond to a return-style conversion. Seems like that would be the way to go... retain injector stability at idle and cruise, and still have plenty of injector for WOT operation. Perhaps a second pump could just be wired in parallel to run constantly (maybe another OEM pump) and feed in close to the rail, right before a regulator.

Very interesting read.

ADM Performance recently built over 1000hp camaro with all OEM lines and tank.There was even a twin output kennebell boostapump and 4-30 amp relays involved and a dry nitrous system(Dry nitrous requires alot of fuel)














Dual nitrous lines(stainless hard line) to twin bottles

[99LS1SS]

I have G8 with Heads/Cam and a 1900. I'm running around 8.5 psi. Even with the 60's you will run out of pump. I worked with some people I know (Engineer and CNC Designer from CCW) to make a twin pump setup the goes in the stock bucket location.

I'm currently using two GSS-342 pumps and an aeromotive external regulator.

As far as I'm aware of this is the only twin pump intake setup for the G8. Being that the Camaro and the G8 have similar tanks, the design might accomodate the Camaro too.

I'm running a twin intank Walbro setup. I'm trying to dial it in as we speak.