Replaced 39lb SVO Blue Giants with FIC custom injectors

[69lt1bird]

Just thought I would put my findings and info out here to help others out.

When I first put this engine together last year I put the Blue Giants in, at the time I did not know they had a VERY wide cone spray pattern, there had been debate and discussion on these on here and other sites. I tuned around them basically but it never did feel right and it did give me trouble tuning. I figured it was just me. I took my intake off in late summer to check a knock sensor and I confirmed that the Blue Giants are not made for our engines. The intake port front and rear walls were spotless, the fuel spray did a great job of cleaning the port walls, kind of wasting a good spray pattern especially when its supposed to hit the back of the intake valve.

I called the guys at Fuel Injector Connection and talked to Jon, the owner, he was very helpful. I told him which injectors I had and he conformed once again that they should not be used in a LS based engine and they have a 30* cone angle. He hooked me up with a new set of Bosch injectors with a 6* cone. Just thought I would put my findings and info out here to help others out.

When I first put this engine together last year I put the Blue Giants in, at the time I did not know they had a VERY wide cone spray pattern, there had been debate and discussion on these on here and other sites. I tuned around them basically but it never did feel right and it did give me trouble tuning. I figured it was just me. I took my intake off in late summer to check a knock sensor and I confirmed that the Blue Giants are not made for our engines. The intake port front and rear walls were spotless, the fuel spray did a great job of cleaning the port walls, kind of wasting a good spray pattern especially when its supposed to hit the back of the intake valve.

I called the guys at Fuel Injector Connection and talked to Jon, the owner, he was very helpful. I told him which injectors I had and he conformed once again that they should not be used in a LS based engine and they have a 30* cone angle. He hooked me up with a new set of Bosch injectors with a 6* cone. The duty cycle only hits 65% at WOT so I have room to do more mods when I get bored with the current setup.

I went back to tuning, I used the information I found on Fords website for the 39 lb injectors and used the high and low slope data and voltage info and made new tables. It tuned fairly easy, my VE table had a major change over 4800 rpms. I attached my tune for others to check out and hopefully offer me some input. Perhaps Greg Banish can chime to let me know if I am going the right direction with the Ford to GM conversion stuff.

[Nitroused383]

What do these flow at 58 psi or your fuel pressure? Are they 47lb injectors? Are these yellow bosch injectors? I think your VE table looks to be quite a bit off, your VE should never be higher at a lower map reading than wide open. If these are the yellow bosch injectors I have a offset table that is very close, as well as the short pulse adders and min inj pulse width. If you have known good injector values in before, and your VE was tuned accurately, you should not have to make changes to your VE to correct fueling. You wont get any help from the guys that know how to do this out there. Are you rich on idle and decel, you really dont want to mask your injectors errors into the VE table.

[69lt1bird]

These are light blue Bosch 3 injectors. I just used the VE to wideband errror histogram and it showed that it was very lean in those areas while tuning. I am experimenting what might work. The are 47 lb when converted.

I spoke to Jon yesterday and we are going to put the LS1 tables back in and do some tweaking with the IFR. I determined the percentage of slope for the stock LS1 injector table and applied that same percentage of gain to the new injectors and will relog to see what that does.

I know I won't get any help from the guys who know but I guess that's the way it goes.

I am lean at idle actually. The wideband error kept saying I needed to raise the area on the VE table you mentioned, it was off my 20+ in areas when I started.

If anything is a good excuse to drive my car more and I do like tuning, I learn something new about it all the time.

[Nitroused383]

Can you post up a tune where you had your VE table dialed in with stock injectors, or injectors that you know you had the right values in?

[69lt1bird]

I never had stock injectors, just the SVO blue ones. Were they ever correct? I don't know, probably not. If it ever stops raining here I will get a chance to go tune this thing.

Where you see that rise in the VE table you mentioned you could feel a flat spot/bog until I raised it. Maybe tomorrow I can go drive around, hopefully.

[Nitroused383]

Well you had to add fuel in through the VE table because your injector offsets are not right. At wideopen throttle did you have to add a bunch to the VE table or was AFR right on? Well send me your stock tune so I can help you set up your offset table. What computer are you running and what operation system? Is it a 2000 camaro/firebird setup?

[69lt1bird]

I don't have an original stock tune but attached is one that had the other injectors. I did not do much to WOT. You can do a compare to see the high MAP and RPM range did not change much. You help is appreciated.

[Nitroused383]

Ok I did a little digging around and found the values for the light blue injectors. This should get you in the ball park but let me know how it acts. You should be able to hear a difference in the way your engine sounds when they are firing correctly. I converted the info over as best as I could but I will need some of your feedback to help with the short pulse adder table. Save this tune and use the compare feature, btw to save some time I only changed the offset values for 12-15 volt just to test this out. So open my file as a compare file and copy all of the info into your tune, Offset, injector flow rate, short pulse adder, min injector pulse width, and default pulse.

Also make sure to reload the VE table you previously had with the old injectors. Give this a shot and let me know how it runs.

[69lt1bird]

Went for a ride at lunch and did as you suggested, I put the old VE tables back in and did the injector table changes that you made. I seems to be falling back in line. I will put the new tune up after work. I am going to do a little tweaking on the way home.

I do appreciate your help, I owe you a

Jeff

[Nitroused383]

If you notice that it is running really rich down low, try and record the injector pulse width. On my setup I am rich at idle 3ms, if you look on the short pulse adder table it is a +/- value. So at 3ms injector pusle I slowly subtracted fuel until my AFR falls back in line. The short pulse adder takes time to setup but you just have to experiment with it. I just looked around on the net until I found which injectors were light blue, and they happened to be the older ford A302 injectors so I took those values and tried to convert them the way I did on my car. No idea if its right or not but the guys who know are keeping their lips sealed like its some great secret. I think if its so important in your setup they should help us out.

[FourG63 97GST]

good info, I gave up on them also for a 42s
just much more info to work with

[69lt1bird]

My replacements will be here today or tomorrow.

[69lt1bird]

Ok, here is the latest and greatest. I got a set of custom flow matched injectors from Fuel Injection Connection fic.com. I spoke to Jon, the owner, and we went over what I really wanted and what my engine really needed. I wanted injectors that flow 39 lb hr @ 58 psi but they needed the EV6 connectors. He sent me a set of Bosch III rated at 34 lb hr @ 3 bar ( 353 cc), they worked out to about 39@58psi. Dropped them in, made sure all settings in the injectors tables were set to stock LS1 settings, plugged in the new IFR numbers and went out tuning.

Very easy VE tune and then touched up the MAF and done. AFR error at idle, cruising 0-3 and WOT is 0-1, an occasional 2% off, damn nice. Great customer service and super communication from FIC. 78-80 % duty cycle at WOT, spot on.

So, in a nut shell, don't over do it on the injectors and make yourself more work.
Attached is my tune, log and cfg. There is a couple of DFCO bumps but no biggie.

[RWTD]

Just thought I would put my findings and info out here to help others out.

When I first put this engine together last year I put the Blue Giants in, at the time I did not know they had a VERY wide cone spray pattern

Are you referring to the Ford '03-'04 Cobra (Terminator) injectors. These here:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=5941
(FYI, the picture shows them as black, as the aftermarket versions are sold this way, whereas the production versions from Ford were blue.)

Also, I'm not sure where the term "Blue Giants" came from, tho?

Anyway, if that's the case, the spray cone pattern in them is a "dual cone" pattern, as they are designed to work with the Terminator's inlet under the supercharger (just as the new ZR1 injectors are designed for use in its inlet). It does require an increase in fuel to wall impact factor table in order to get your transient fueling correct, and of course the *proper* injector values, as well (which I have, but I can't share, tho anyone who buys Greg Banish's new book will have access to them).

Ok I did a little digging around and found the values for the light blue injectors.

You're thinking of the 36# Bosch/SVO injector, correct? These were discontinued, tho I believe you can still find them from Bosch, but in white now.

...needed the EV6 connectors.

To note, many people confuse the "injector body" call tag (EV1, EV6, EV14) with the injector connector call tag (Jetronic/Minitimer, USCAR, etc.). Some new style bodied injectors have old style connectors, and vice versa. See here:

PART NUMBER (SETS OF 8) FLOW RATE BODY STYLE IMPEDANCE LENGTH CONNECTOR
M-9593-C302* 19 lbs./hr. EV1 11-18 ohms L Jetronic/Minitimer
M-9593-LU24* 24 lbs./hr. EV6 11-18 ohms L USCAR
M-9593-AA302* 24 lbs./hr. EV6 11-18 ohms L Jetronic/Minitimer
M-9593-BB302* 30 lbs./hr. EV6 11-18 ohms L Jetronic/Minitimer
M-9593-MU32* 32 lbs./hr. EV14 11-12 ohms M USCAR
M-9593-LU34* 34 lbs./hr. EV6 11-12 ohms L USCAR
M-9593-M39* 39 lbs./hr. EV6 11-18 ohms L USCAR
M-9593-F302* 42 lbs./hr. EV1 11-18 ohms L Jetronic/Minitimer
M-9593-G302* 47 lbs./hr. EV14 11-18 ohms M USCAR
M-9593-LU60* 60 lbs./hr. EV6 11-12 ohms L USCAR
M-9593-LU80* 80 lbs./hr. EV6 11-12 ohms L USCAR

[69lt1bird]

Yes, I had the Terminator injectors, still do and are for sale.

The "I have them but can't share" is the part the drove me to say screw it and get the correct spray pattern injectors. Plus why f around with injectors that aren't made for the port setup. Live and learn on my behalf.

I do have my name on the preorder list for Greg's new book. Hopefully it will be out soon. The new injectors I am running are the Bosch III version.

[Nitroused383]

I gave you the values for the light blue discontinued ford injectors M-9593-A302
I am currently running reflowed / flowmatched original ford 19lb injectors and I used the values for M-9593-C302*. Mine have been reflowed to 36lbs at 58psi. My offset table I came up with and short pulse adders has worked out ok. I just bought a set of the BB302 red tops though to try them.

Hey what color are the injectors you are currently running, grey?

[RWTD]

Ahhh, the ole 24# injector that came standard in the '93-'98 Cobras, which is now the AA302.

Values for a non-modified injector on a same injector that has been modified aren't proper, as the dynamics of the injector have changed (on top of the pressure difference). Also, it seems that only Greg Banish has managed to "crack", per se, the ability to take Ford's data and actually fit it into GM's methods. However, I understand where you're coming from in that it's all that you have to go with. At least you're working to come up with values.

Curious, why not just go with a known injector that you already have the values for, such as the stock 33# injectors on the LS2 (they make injector extenders so you can use them properly), or are those not large enough?

[Nitroused383]

The only issues I have had are trying to determine the short pulse adder table. Instead of being an "adder" table I put in negative values because there was too much fuel below 3.2 m/sec pulsewidth. Everything above that was right on even at wideopen. I know the values are far from exact but Greg was unwilling to offer any help and decided it could not be done. I mostly did it to try and learn on my own, I like to do all my own work on my car.

I wish I would have known about the LS2 injectors as I think 33lb injectors would be enough. I had no idea you could run the LS2 injectors, actually that really frustrates me because I feel I have wasted a lot of time screwing around with this. Does anyone sell a set of flow matched LS2 injectors?

[RWTD]

Yeah, you could run the LS2 injectors, but you'd need the injector extenders so the rails will clear your intake. FAST offers them for their intakes, and KB also offers them for some of their kits. You'd also need the wiring adapters, or just cut your existing connectors out and solder in new ones.

Not sure if anyone sells any flow matched ones - that would be nice!